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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 100740 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

9-Dec

Very interesting.  Thanks!

In reply toRe: msg 229
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

4-Mar

H&K has displayed an updated version of the HK433; perhaps driven by German military suggestions:

https://soldiersystems.net/2022/03/02/enforce-tac-heckler-koch-hk433-updates/

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

4-Mar

So far no decision has been made.

If a new rifle will be adopted and if yes which one remains to be seen.

Currently it seems rifles are not particulary high on the Priorität list.

Since there are now significant funds available it is even possible a new program is startet for a complete new design to 100 % match the requirement.   

Wessels3

From: Wessels3

6-Mar

Since there are now significant funds available it is even possible a new program is startet for a complete new design to 100 % match the requirement.   

My God, I hope not! That will take at least 2 years again! Surely there are enough rifles designs on the market now to enable the German Army to choose SOMETHING! With the urgency arising from the Ukranian fiasco, and the additional money now available, surely they'll quickly make a choice and start production?

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

6-Mar

My educated guess is the timeframe for a clean sheet development would be more in the 5 years plus range. With the size of the plus depending on how gilded and high tech the approach is.

Its ironic but with the current crisis and the refocus on home and allied defense the replacement for the G36 has become very low priority. To large parts because this is exactly the scenario the G36 originally was envisiond and developed for. Also nobody in the military really has a problem with the G36. There is really no need to replace it. The later improvements and modifications of the G36 fix all issues. The gun itself works fine. Since there was a change in political leadership the people who pushed for the G36 replacement are gone.
It seems more likely that now it is the most effective and fast sollution to bring all G36 to A3 or A4 standard and maybe buy new ones build to the latest specs.

I can not stress enough how far down on the priority list small arms are right now. Just to give a few numbers. About 20 € billion of the 100 billion emergency funding are needed to bring the amunition reserves back up to required defense reserves and replace old, outdaten and over stored items.
Rheinmetall made an offer last week for a ~40 billion € package which would bring large parts of the AFV to an up to date standard... timeframe 4-5 years.
A few other options could be called as well but again this will take time.

The main problem now is time. Not money. Because of all the savings and downsizings now the people to actually spend the money, to do the work are gone. Not only in the MoD and its agencies but also in the industry. Allmost all of the (defense) companies i talked to in the last weeks and month are at least 25 % understaffed in their technical and production departments. Same is true for the BAAIN. The problem is the workforce is streched so thin in Germany nowadays its allmost impossible to fill the gaps.

All of this is moot if the decision is made to reactivate the draft. If this will be the case the money is gone anyways. Because we would look at a at least five year program geting new infrastructure, facilities and equipment. All of this is gone since the draft was put on hold. Everything sold or used up. It would take at least five years befor the first new draftees could be put into service.

Long story short: a new rifle is one of the least of the German militaries problems.

Wessels3

From: Wessels3

6-Mar

Your post is highly thought-provoking. What you are saying about the state of the German defence force, and the time it will take to realise the desired high profile defence posture, of course is also true for the rest of Europe. That means that NATO will largely (completely?) be dependent on the US until that time. 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

6-Mar

If you think about it its not that much of a supprise.
For comparison think about the state of the Russian military around the turn of the century. How long did it take them to come to the state they are currently in? 10 years? 15 years? How long does it take the Chinese to modernise their military?
10 Years are the timeframe we talk about. IF there is continuous funding available.
The 100 billion € emergency fund also isn't that much if you look at it closely. THe German military is significantly underfunded for more than two decades. 100 billion is roughly equivalent to the funding gap of four years. To come back to the state the military was in at the end of the cold war it would take at least six times as much.

Not all European Countries are in such a poor state. Poland and Turkey to name two large ones are not. The Scandinavian countries also kept their militaries in a better state.

But yes, NATO de facto is an auxillary force for the US. Exept for France wich has limited force projection capabilities on its own. There really is little there.

Wessels3

From: Wessels3

6-Mar

One wonders how the Russian threat profile will develop during this period of European military build up. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

6-Mar

Wessels3 said:

One wonders how the Russian threat profile will develop during this period of European military build up

Well with their pretty appalling loses so far in terms of equipment, plus the sanctions, its hard to imagine their military being much improved.

That is unless they become isolated to the point of becoming a sort of super north korea / stalinist russia, and just re-orient their society to a mass re-armament campaign, backed by chinese technology. 

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