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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 114524 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

27/3/22

schnuersi said:

I meant LMG in the traditional sense as a full caliber weapon. While the SAW is a SCHV weapon.

Ah, okay.  It was just a little confusing because previously you said "7.62 SAW/LMG" in your earlier post (#267).

schnuersi said:

If you have an IFV or armed APC close by the extra range and punch of 7,62 over 5,56 is most likely less necessary.

Perhaps.  However, it's clear that many armies think it's better for the squad to have the extra punch of 7.62mm.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27/3/22

EmericD said:

... only 6 guys, so who is carrying the ammo to feed the 2x 7.62 mm LMG?

FWIW, this Danish M60 gunner looks like he may have 100 rounds in the gun, and 4x100 rounds in pouches.

M60e6

Quick draw m60e6 on shooting range in the dainsh army !

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27/3/22

EmericD said:

But probably a very low ammunition allocation... only 6 guys, so who is carrying the ammo to feed the 2x 7.62 mm LMG (probably inside the vehicle?)

If Stans numbers posted earlier are correct, each Dane60 is carrying 500rd (which is pretty outrageous). That would give 1000rd 7.62 per 6 man squad, which seems pretty respectable (and super heavy.)

The hard in the yard factor really goes up when we imagine multiple squads working together. 3x Danish squads totals 18 men (equivalent to 2x 9 man squads) and would have 6x LMG/3000rd of 7.62 LMG ammo + 6x AT4's + 3x 40mms and (?) ammo.... 

Compared to 18 men of any other infantry...its really a serious amount of dakka. 

EmericD

From: EmericD

27/3/22

stancrist said:

FWIW, this Danish M60 gunner looks like he may have 100 rounds in the gun, and 4x100 rounds in pouches.

Thank you.

So, a 9.3 kg LMG + 2.8 kg of ammo on the gun, and 4*2.8 kg of ammo around the waist for a total of 23.3 kg without sights and sling? They are not planning for a day-long foot patrol!

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

28/3/22

stancrist said:

This is not correct BTW.
The German Army does not issue the G36K to Panzergrenadiers. Actually I am not aware that it is issued to any troops other than SOF. The Crew of a Marder or Puma is armed with MP7.
It is currently unclear at least as far I can tell if the MG4 will remain the squad LMG, if it will be replaced by the MG5 or if it will be supplemented by the MG5.
The AT gunner is not a fixed person. The squad has one PzFst3 as squad asset. It is used at the squad leaders discression. He designates the gunner on the spot. The spare shot is usually carried by a second soldier.

stancrist

From: stancrist

29/3/22

schnuersi said:

This is not correct BTW. The German Army does not issue the G36K to Panzergrenadiers. Actually I am not aware that it is issued to any troops other than SOF. The Crew of a Marder or Puma is armed with MP7.

Are you sure crew armament has not changed to G36K?  The preceding chart shows MP7.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

29/3/22

stancrist said:

Are you sure crew armament has not changed to G36K? The preceding chart shows MP7.

Pretty sure.
I have never heard or read the G36 with short barrels are a thing in the German army. I also don't know any pictures that would show it.

I know that the German Army did not purchase any G36 with shorter barrels than the standard rifle in the past. The only exeption have been the ones for the SOF but these have been phased out and been replaced by G95k (Hk416) by now.
Since there have been no new purchases of G36 rifles since at least 2015 it is extremly unlikely that all of a sudden G36k appear in the inventory of regular units.
Should a G36 replacement finally be selected and purchased it is possible that there would be short barreled versions for vehicle crews. But I really doubt that. Since the MP7 was developed for precisely this role. Personally I do not see the need to equip AFV crews with carbines or rifles. So far the Army seems pretty happy with the MP7. I personally like it and think its a great weapon. Significantly better than the MP2 (Uzi) it replaces.

stancrist

From: stancrist

29/3/22

I couldn't find any photos of Marder/Puma vehicle crewmen with personal weapons, but did find some pics showing the infantry troop leader with a G36K.

Soldier at far right in photo below.  More pics here:  BW – System Panzergrenadier | TANK-MASTERS – Photos & Journalism | Military Photos & Journalism

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

29/3/22

I'm very much myself starting to strongly believe that there's very little point In 5.56 belt feds, if any at all for line units, and even groups like the 82nd 101st and rangers.

I'm not sure I'm convinced squad level belt feds should go away either though.

I think that it's probably best that we have some sort of "full power" lightweight case belt feds at minimum available at squad level...

I know I'm 100% convinced that schnuersi is beyond wrong about his assertion that you can't have a good gpmg that's under 10-12 kilograms though!

More importantly than than this though, the radical defense self Cooling suppressor exist and absolutely should be capitalized on/used as widely as we can afford to!

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/radical-defense-m249fvs-laser-sintering-meets-lewis-gun/

These will undoubtedly get lighter over time, and there's other potential barrel technologies they may actually dovetail with quite well.

Between things like this radical defense can, other things you can do about heat (which will add weight), and enablers like FWS CS and beyond, it's pretty clear that if we want to get the most out of belt feds we're going to have to find a way to make them lighter.

Luckily this is very possible and has been since the late 70's or early 80's where we saw a belt fed design that tested incredibly well as both a saw and a gpmg, had a 7.62 version, and even the 7.62 version with 24" barrel was about 15 or so pounds (which is pretty close to not even half the weight schnuersi has suggested it's possible to make A gpmg that's worthwhile)

Another thing we're going to have to do though is find a way to economize on gun construction in both cost and in just what production methods and resources are required to put them out.

Put simply, while our ability to laser sinter, cold/warm spray, and other advanced production technologies  like flow forming total potential throughput increases every year there's always going to be more demand for this throughput than there is production capacity.

What we're seeing in Ukraine very starkly illustrates why I say this too!

A very stunning example of why I say this can be seen in the Ukrainian defense forces requesting 500 each of javelins and stinger missiles per combat day!

To give people here a concrete understanding of why this is shocking, our entire production capacity for javelins in a year amounts to a notional 2100 missiles PER YEAR!

In theory we have the ability to short term surge manufacture more but how many more for how long, especially when we haven't even been buying 2100 a year recently is anybody's guess.

Simply put the collective west's production capacity for Military weapons and consumables combined is being strained to absolute breaking by our support of Ukraine in their war (a country that was already awash in a sea of weapons ammunition and consumables!)

What we're seeing in Ukraine has definitely vindicated several of my long held positions, positions I'm not particularly happy about being right about this to say the least though.

What it has showed me and I think should show everyone else is that we don't have the comfortable monopoly on high end force and logistical staying power we have all gotten used to the idea of having.

It is Time for us to get smart and really start looking at how we can do more with less, economize where we can in order to assure we can manufacture enough of our force multiplying high end goodies, and just generally get all around more serious about getting leaner meaner and more efficient.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

30/3/22

stancrist said:

I couldn't find any photos of Marder/Puma vehicle crewmen with personal weapons, but did find some pics showing the infantry troop leader with a G36K. Soldier at far right in photo below.

I know these pictures. They don't show line troops but one possible configuration and the current state of the Sytem Panzergrenader as part of the IDZ Infantrie der Zukunft (infantry of the future project). So it does not resemble the actual ORBAT.
It could even be a photo taken by a manufacturer to show the current state of his gear.


This picture for example is from Rheinmetall. It more or less shows what the other picture shows but the guys wear green camo. Also all rifles are full length.

If you look at pictures and videos from the units currently deployed as part of the VJTF you see older G36 version, all full length barrel, but more MGs and Panzerfaust.

This is an actual picture showing troops in training.
The first thing that strikes the eye is the fact that the equipment and clothing is far less uniform than in the addvertisements. The soldiers also lack all the fancy electronics. The rifles are pretty standard G36. Not even flashlights or lasers mounted.

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