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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 107359 views.
In reply toRe: msg 314
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

7-May

Another article on German Rearmament:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/business/germany-military-ukraine-russia.html

Archive to bypass paywall:

https://archive.ph/LkavQ

Germany’s Military Industry Gears Up to Restock Its Own Forces

The country’s chancellor has pledged about $100 billion to rebuild its army, but that increase in spending may not be enough to reverse years of neglect, experts say.

Shortages of body armor. Radios so antiquated they are the butt of jokes from other NATO soldiers. A dysfunctional procurement system that takes years just to acquire  shoulder patches.

After decades of budget cuts, the German military is woefully short of basic supplies, whether they’re bullets or backpacks. But galvanized by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, Chancellor Olaf Scholz has pledged to spend 100 billion euros, or $105 billion, to modernize the force, nearly tripling military spending from the previous year.

...

Ralf Ketzel, a former artillery officer who is Krauss-Maffei Wegmann’s chief executive, said it would take no more than two years to begin delivering the several hundred Leopard 2s and Pumas — a kind of combination tank and armored personnel carrier — that Germany’s three combat divisions needed.

“The situation is not as bleak as it is sometimes portrayed,” Mr. Ketzel said.

...

Germany’s procurement system is agonizingly slow. Delivery of a new assault rifle manufactured by Heckler & Koch, which also supplies the U.S. Marine Corps, is seven years behind schedule because of a German law that allows the losing bidder for a defense contract to challenge the decision in court.

Not long after Mr. Scholz announced the increase in spending, the Defense Ministry summoned executives of major contractors to Berlin. One of the messages: Stop suing one another and work as a team, according to three people with knowledge of the meeting. The Defense Ministry declined to comment.

...

A March report to Parliament by Ms. Högl detailed the armed forces’ shortcomings, including shortages of basic equipment like body armor and winter jackets. The system for buying supplies is so dysfunctional that an intelligence unit was waiting to receive uniform insignia it ordered in 2020.

During maneuvers in Lithuania, according to the report, German soldiers were laughed at by soldiers from other NATO armies because they didn’t know how to use the latest communications equipment. The radios they had trained with in Germany were obsolete.

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schnuersi

From: schnuersi

7-May

gatnerd said:

Another article on German Rearmament:

The important info is: not a single € has been approved so far.
This is why no serious planning has started yet. We are still in the wish list and pipe dream stage.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

7-May

That's unfortunately the state of things mostly everywhere right now.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul doesn't begin to describe the unholy cluster fuck we're seeing.

The worst part is once money actually starts flowing in governments are going to be shocked and dismayed when they "find out" that the last 3 decades of approving mergers and "industry consolidation" means that the very few factories and production lines left already have full order books into 2025 or further and physically can't produce more without costly expansion and years of delay In order to rebuild all the production capacity "trimmed off" during the mergers and consolidation.

In a way Ukraine happening is a good thing in this regard since it's a soft wake up call compared to China which has basically scheduled a war with the west in or around the 2030 time period.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

7-May

roguetechie said:

The worst part is once money actually starts flowing in governments are going to be shocked and dismayed when they "find out" that the last 3 decades of approving mergers and "industry consolidation" means that the very few factories and production lines left already have full order books into 2025 or further and physically can't produce more without costly expansion and years of delay In order to rebuild all the production capacity "trimmed off" during the mergers and consolidation.

Yes all the downsizing and cosolidiation also lead to an oligopoly in the defense sector. In some cases in Germany even a monopoly. Which is a problem.
The main problem we have in Germany is shortage of skilled labour. There is allmost nobody left to ramp up production. In the last two decades most qualified young people moved away from productive and blue collar labour... because of the downsizing and cosolidation. And who could blame them. Now with the aging population and the number of retirees rising there are not enough to replace them. This will be a tough problem to solve. Tougher than setting up new production lines.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

7-May

At the Commander Salamander site, a guy told me for one subcontractor, one of the critical guys is 70. They literally can't find anyone willing to do his job.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

7-May

schnuersi said:

This will be a tough problem to solve

Perhaps some of the Ukrainian refugees might be put on the assembly line? 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

7-May

gatnerd said:

Perhaps some of the Ukrainian refugees might be put on the assembly line?

concidering that the vast majority are women and children I doubt the Ukrainian refugees will be of much help in this regard.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

7-May

Farmplinker said:

At the Commander Salamander site, a guy told me for one subcontractor, one of the critical guys is 70. They literally can't find anyone willing to do his job.

Yes its really crazy.
I have been at a company who does high quality welding for defense customers a couple of weeks ago... the age of their workforce especially the welders is really old. They are 25 % understaffed and can't find new people.
The guys they have are good but some of them can't pull of overtime all the time anymore and they would have to start training people for the replacement of retirees.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

7-May

schnuersi said:

concidering that the vast majority are women

Not unprecedented to have women work assembly in defense production in a crisis:

Children could also be directed toward apprentice programs when they come of age.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

8-May

gatnerd said:

Not unprecedented to have women work assembly in defense production in a crisis:

True but what you see on the picture is not how the modern defense industrie works or even how modern assebly lines look.
The pictures of the article you posted of KMWs Munich plant give you a far better impression how AFV assembly looks nowadays.

There also is a significant reluctance of women to work in STEM and especially the blue collar end of the spectrum.
I am affraid the days of Rosie the Riveter are long gone.

The rather simple labour that can be quickly learned is mostly done by machines nowadays. Besides there really is no shortage of unskilled labour in Germany. Really there is plenty of that. Its just not needed anymore. What are needed are trained and experienced specialists. Like the mentioned welders. It takes at least three years to train a welder so he or she gets his or her apprenticeship and is considered skilled. After that all the aditional training for the certificates to be allowed to weld armor will take at least another two years. The wash out rate is high. In the 50 % range.
Its comparable with mechanics, technicians and machinists. Takes years to get the to the level the defense or aerospace industry needs. Its the same with automotive BTW. The sad truth is few young people with low education have what it takes to succeed in these fields. They are missing the simple basics. Like discipline and motivation. This is why they fail their initial aprrenticeships at massive rates. So massive few companies even bother hiring them and start training them anymore. The youngsters with better education that actually bring discipline and motivation in additon do not want to work in blue collar jobs and are off to the university. Nowadays there is only a very small group of a given cohort that makes it into the skilled labour category. Most either remain unskilled or have higher education. So the competition for getting the skilled labour is high.

gatnerd said:

Children could also be directed toward apprentice programs when they come of age.

As mentioned above plus: It is not that there are no programs to bring new people into the workforce and to support and encurage you people to become skilled labourers. Its just that these programs all are ineffective. Because the people in charge ignore the facts of the modern reality. It used to be the way that there are three levels of school. The easiest for was a basic education. You could graduate after 10 years of attendance or not. People on this level would get low or unskilled jobs. Then there was the middle level with required a graduation after 10 successfully graduated years. These people used to be the vast majority and became skilled labour. The education actually aimed at putting the graduating students right into an apprenticeship at the age of 16. The highest level trained people for higher education and required a graduation after 13 successfully graduated year. The percentages used to be in the 20%-60%-20% range. This is the basic foundation of the German system. But nowadays the middle level has effectively completly disappeared and as a result the low level and high level have vastly inflated. To an allmost 50%-0-50% ratio. The 50 % on the low end are barely qualified and even if they are on paper they lack in soft skills. The graduates of the high level are overqualified and do not want to do blue collar work. This is why all steering and planing falls short. The current realities are complelty different to the way it should be, which is used as a base for planing.

In addition currently it is assumed that the Ukrainian refugees will return soon. So there are no long term plans for them.

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