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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 98750 views.
In reply toRe: msg 253
graylion

From: graylion

13/2/21

And I just had another idea: metal stamped gun or plastic? Same for mags? Metal mags have thinner walls I believe?

  • Edited 13 February 2021 14:20  by  graylion
tidusyuki

From: tidusyuki

14/2/21

Plastics are the trend nowadays. Even for mags.

Metals are thinner but it has some problems like it could be easily dent and will have some reliability issues.

In reply toRe: msg 254
graylion

From: graylion

15/2/21

So next is the cartridge. I am thinking a polymer cartridge, running @ around 500 MPa - ca 72kPsI. The bullet I am thinking a spitzer. tungsten core with aluminium body, and a polymer film in between for easier separation. Bear with me a bit while I work out which calibre would appear to work best

stancrist

From: stancrist

15/2/21

graylion said:

The bullet I am thinking a spitzer. tungsten core with aluminium body, and a polymer film in between for easier separation.

If "body" refers to the jacket, I doubt that aluminum is a viable option.

And wouldn't polymer film violate international law requiring bullet components be visible on x-rays?

graylion

From: graylion

15/2/21

no, not the jacket. Imagine a pointy cylindrical tungsten penetrator with a diameter of ca 3.5mm and going the length of the projectile. Outside of that I want aluminium, keeping the bullet as light as possible, since speed is what penetrates armour. Between these two, a very thin layer of polymer as a lubricant to ease separation when hitting armour. Possibly drive bands made out of copper alloy since aluminium oxidises nearly instantaneously and aluminium oxide is very hard.

I am very much looking at a bullet with drive bands for reasons of efficiency

  • Edited 15 February 2021 14:46  by  graylion
stancrist

From: stancrist

16/2/21

Hmm.  Won't a pointy tungsten penetrator + polymer film + aluminum body + copper drive bands = a very expensive and difficult to manufacture bullet?

What you have described sounds like basically a much more complex and costly version of the Aeroshell projectile.

SOCOM wants a new armor piercing sniper bullet. Here’s one option engineers are developing (militarytimes.com)

graylion

From: graylion

16/2/21

let me read up on that, but the basic inspiration is 7N31. Or 7N21? One of dem Russian bullets anyway ;)

  • Edited 16 February 2021 11:12  by  graylion
Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

16/2/21

stancrist said:

What you have described sounds like basically a much more complex and costly version of the Aeroshell projectile.

That looks like a more refined version of the Dagny Dagger.  (Or rather, the Dagny Dagger looks like a less refined version of this, as the Aeroshell appears to have been around longer, at least conceptually.)  The idea seems to work, at least in 9x19mm.  The DD uses what appears to be a NiCu penetrator, but that's only to get around US ammunition laws; as one of its creators said, there's no practical reason why someone couldn't use a different penetrator material.

I'd expect some Hague Convention related gripes from certain parties, especially if Elbonia optimized the sabot for destructive effect on soft targets - an easy thing to do, and one that wouldn't affect hard target penetration.

graylion

From: graylion

22/2/21

Mustrakrakis said:

I'd expect some Hague Convention related gripes from certain parties, especially if Elbonia optimized the sabot for destructive effect on soft targets - an easy thing to do, and one that wouldn't affect hard target penetration.

Not sure why? Not a hollow point and would it be more injuring than a regular FMJ?

ZailC

From: ZailC

22/2/21

Forget the polymer layer; tungsten rod will shrug off the aluminum shell shortly after penetration begins due to acoustic mismatch between the materials. A more serious problem is stabilizing the projectile even at PDW velocities and spin rates. I won''t make the calculations for you, but it won't be aerodynamically stable beyond a few dozen meters; lousy gyroscopic moment.

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