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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 98745 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

16/2/21

Hmm.  Won't a pointy tungsten penetrator + polymer film + aluminum body + copper drive bands = a very expensive and difficult to manufacture bullet?

What you have described sounds like basically a much more complex and costly version of the Aeroshell projectile.

SOCOM wants a new armor piercing sniper bullet. Here’s one option engineers are developing (militarytimes.com)

graylion

From: graylion

16/2/21

let me read up on that, but the basic inspiration is 7N31. Or 7N21? One of dem Russian bullets anyway ;)

  • Edited 16 February 2021 11:12  by  graylion
Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

16/2/21

stancrist said:

What you have described sounds like basically a much more complex and costly version of the Aeroshell projectile.

That looks like a more refined version of the Dagny Dagger.  (Or rather, the Dagny Dagger looks like a less refined version of this, as the Aeroshell appears to have been around longer, at least conceptually.)  The idea seems to work, at least in 9x19mm.  The DD uses what appears to be a NiCu penetrator, but that's only to get around US ammunition laws; as one of its creators said, there's no practical reason why someone couldn't use a different penetrator material.

I'd expect some Hague Convention related gripes from certain parties, especially if Elbonia optimized the sabot for destructive effect on soft targets - an easy thing to do, and one that wouldn't affect hard target penetration.

graylion

From: graylion

22/2/21

Mustrakrakis said:

I'd expect some Hague Convention related gripes from certain parties, especially if Elbonia optimized the sabot for destructive effect on soft targets - an easy thing to do, and one that wouldn't affect hard target penetration.

Not sure why? Not a hollow point and would it be more injuring than a regular FMJ?

ZailC

From: ZailC

22/2/21

Forget the polymer layer; tungsten rod will shrug off the aluminum shell shortly after penetration begins due to acoustic mismatch between the materials. A more serious problem is stabilizing the projectile even at PDW velocities and spin rates. I won''t make the calculations for you, but it won't be aerodynamically stable beyond a few dozen meters; lousy gyroscopic moment.

Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

22/2/21

graylion said:

Not sure why? Not a hollow point and would it be more injuring than a regular FMJ?

I'm talking about a non-discarding plastic sabot that essentially explodes in soft targets by design, as in the Dagny Dagger.  It is certainly more injuring than a regular FMJ against unarmored flesh.

Hollow points are not specifically addressed as a problem with the Hague Convention, although that is a common (but not universal) interpretation.  In the case of something like the Dagny Dagger, the complaints would be regarding "...bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body..." and "...with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the the core...".  It's simple for JAG and I to dismiss Sierra MatchKings as legal due to violating the letter of the Convention without violating the intent of it, just as it's simple for Europeans to do the same with their open-base bullets, but in a case like this, it's arguably violating the wording and is definitely violating the intent.

I'd expect complaints, but I'm not sure whether or not they'd ultimately matter.  When's the last time a country got in actual trouble for using questionable bullets?

graylion

From: graylion

23/2/21

Mustrakrakis said:

I'm talking about a non-discarding plastic sabot that essentially explodes in soft targets by design, as in the Dagny Dagger.  It is certainly more injuring than a regular FMJ against unarmored flesh.

Yes, but that is not what the bullet we are talking about looks like - and not what I'd want. 

graylion

From: graylion

23/2/21

ZailC said:

Forget the polymer layer; tungsten rod will shrug off the aluminum shell shortly after penetration begins due to acoustic mismatch between the materials. A more serious problem is stabilizing the projectile even at PDW velocities and spin rates. I won''t make the calculations for you, but it won't be aerodynamically stable beyond a few dozen meters; lousy gyroscopic moment.

Well, we are designing the gun, so we can decide on the spin rate. And how does this work for the Dagny Dagger?

In reply toRe: msg 266
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

23/2/21

With enough velocity you don't even need a super hard  rod.

300Norma Mag  and 155grain match bullet at 3800fps , punching through 10mm Hardox Extreme like its nobody business. Result was not intentional but a stupid , miscalculation that soft bullet won't damage the plategrin 

*Hardox® Extreme  nominal hardness of 60 HRC (Rockwell) and typical hardness of 650-700 HBW

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

23/2/21

That shouldn't be unexpected at all.

This said, punching high hardness steel of wearable thickness isn't terribly difficult compared to punching level 3 ceramics and etc much less esapi grade plates.

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