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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 123558 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

18/4/22

stancrist said:

Well, if you're going to define "vehicle crewman" as any soldier who drives a motor vehicle at some time during the year, then that means even infantrymen are vehicle crewman and should have a PDW instead of a rifle or machine gun...

No, my definition is everyone who conducts his main task or parts of his main task inside a vehicle.

stancrist said:

US Army medics are armed with a carbine, but it does not seem to impede them in performing their duties. And I see no reason why a carbine would be any more incompatible with the other jobs than would an MP7.

Most medics ride around in vehicles. Often even armored ones.
For the few that don't the real question is what does a carbine do to help them in their main task... answer: it gets in the way. A PDW also will get in the way but less since its smaller.
You have to die one death. Its about the optimal compromise.
Since there are vehicles everywhere there are GPMGs everywhere. In the past on pintle mounts nowadays often on RWS.
So what is the point of issuing carbines or rifles? The PDW is absolutely sufficient to buy time until a GPMG or heavier weapon can chime in.

stancrist said:

Peacetime training exercises don't matter.

I disagree. Soldiers tend to behave in theatre as they did in training. At least until they learned from experience that this is a bad idea. At this point its to late for some.
I do agree that its not 100 % the same.

stancrist said:

During one deployment to the National Training Center, some of the guys in my battalion stowed folding beach chairs and coolers full of beer in the bustle racks of their tanks, then "kicked back" and relaxed with a cold brew in the evening.

Great example... German soldiers do that in theatre. Of course details matter.
You still put out sentries etc but the guys who are not involved in any active tasks can lean back a bit and enjoy a sort of closing time. A carbine really gets in the way when sitting down and trying to relax a bit. A PDW much less.

stancrist said:

That's not even a little peculiar. That's actually quite typical. You see the same absence of small arms in most WW2 photos of US artillery in action.

And now we jump to modern times and there is no towed artillery anymore. Artillery men are AFV crews just like mortar teams. The only thing remotely comparable to a traditional towed artillery piece in the German army are the mortar teams of the airborne units who use light trucks to carry their mortars around and actually have to set them up.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

18/4/22

DavidPawley said:

Engineers are vehicle crew? I must let my engineer acquaintances know that.

Just a few examples.

I don't know how you think modern engineers do their work? Lots of people with shovels?
The main mode of transportation of the German engineers is the Fuchs APC.
Except for the speciality engeneering companies of the airborne and mountain brigade the engeneering units are all fully mechanised.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

18/4/22

mpopenker said:

Position of the slung weapon may be dependent on the chances of the enemy infantry suddenly popping out near your position

Looking at pictures with German troops from WW2 it mostly seem to depend how official the picture was. The staged, official propaganda pictures allways show soldiers in perfect uniform with rifle on the back. The snap shots taken during combat allways show very sloppy uniforms and no small arms nearby.

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

18/4/22

I took a look at the Soviet artillery photos from the WW2:

as you can see, it's a fair mix of people with and without small arms. I think the larger artillery caliber is, the less you will see small arms around it.

At least, most Soviet 45mm and 76mm AT crews are shown carrying their issued small arms during the action, which should be of little surprise, I think

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

18/4/22

mpopenker said:

At least, most Soviet 45mm and 76mm AT crews are shown carrying their issued small arms during the action, which should be of little surprise, I think

Just did some quick search of the internet. In the not representative sample i also found that the amount of small arms carried seems to be linked to gun size. For the 3,7 cm Pak often the crew is seen with rifles. For the 5 cm Pak seldom and allmost never for the 7,5 cm Pak.
My guess is is there are several faktors at play. The larger guns are usually moved by vehicle. They are also more difficult to bring into position. It requires more labour. The ammo is larger and heavier.
Its also important to mention that a German AT platoon of WW2 has an MG section for close in defense.

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

18/4/22

I think it's both gun size and the distance from the enemy.

The bigger is the gun the further it is (usually) from the enemy and its infantry.

smg762

From: smg762

18/4/22

to change the subject slightly, didn't the netherlands airforce start to arm their pilots with MP9's?

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

18/4/22

According do the internet the Nethlands air force issued M9 to pilots flying anti ISIS mission.

No idea if they still issue the weapon or if they are issuing it more wide spread.

Msg 7776.595 deleted
stancrist

From: stancrist

18/4/22

schnuersi said:

Looking at pictures with German troops from WW2 it mostly seem to depend how official the picture was. The staged, official propaganda pictures allways show soldiers in perfect uniform with rifle on the back. The snap shots taken during combat allways show very sloppy uniforms and no small arms nearby.

That's common in US photos, too.  But I did find a pic taken during the 1943 battle for Attu Island which shows M1 carbines on the backs of the gun crew.

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