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Military Guns and Ammunition

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 144753 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

18-Sep

gatnerd said:

I'd say a more reasonable PDW option is being able to penetrate a current IIIA+ ballistic helmet, as thats something a compact weapon and even handgun could actually do with a steel core projectile.

I don't know if I'd call that a "reasonable" option.  Soldiers are typically taught to shoot center of mass.  Against assaulting enemy infantry, that means aiming for the chest.

How reasonable is it for non-infantry personnel to try for headshots at rapidly moving enemy troops?  And if headshots are the way to go, why even bother using AP ammo?

Why not just use Ball ammo and aim for the unprotected face?

  • Edited 18 September 2022 2:13  by  stancrist
stancrist

From: stancrist

18-Sep

gatnerd said:

My point with the 7.5fk or really any other PDW cartridge is that a magazine in grip format is really optimal, and that the P90 top mounted magazine really isn't as cool as it looks.

I would be inclined to agree on the format, but if you're going to arm cooks and clerks with a SMG and tell them to make headshots, having a gun with 50 rounds just seems to make a lot more sense than having a gun loaded with only 15 rounds.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

18-Sep

stancrist said:

A weapon the size of the MP7, chambered in 7.5 BRNO would probably weigh about 5.0 lb / 2.3 kg unloaded.

I am not convinced that a MP7 chambered in 7.5 or 5,7 for that matter would significantly differ in weight compared the original version in 4,6.

Furthermore I am absolutely convinced that it is possible to keep a 2.something kg weapon on the person all the time. Even 3 or 4 kg is absolutely doable. Weight wise an M4 carbine could be on the person all the time IMHO. Its just the form and size that makes this unrealistic.
What weight can be carried on the person depends allmost entirely on training and getting used to.

BTW: I met plenty of people who argued the standard issue service pristol is to heavy to be kept on the person all the time... if we concider these people to be correct effectively no usefull weapon can achieve this requirement.

stancrist said:

Well, the infantry are far more likely than "all other personnel" to have to engage the enemy with small arms. Would you focus PDW design on the needs of the "all other personnel" who are unlikely to ever be in combat?

Because its not for infantry to use.
Infantry troops have, carbines, rifles, DMRs, LMGs, GLs etc to fight an infantry fight. Why would they need an additional weapon? Why should the one weapon intended for everybody else be designed to infantry specifications rooted in infantry combat.
A PDW is an emergeny self defense weapon. Its purpose is to be there when needed and give the user a chance to defend himself and buy time until a serious infantry or heavy weapon can be brought to bear.
This is why IMHO compactness and carryability are paramount. Performance is secondary.
If ones understanding of the PDW concept differs the requirements differ.

I am also not convinced that the 7.5 is a sensible replacement for either the 4,6 or 5,7. IMHO the flat trajectory and high ammo count of the latter two is a huge advantage for use by a mediocre or worse shooter. The 7.5 happens to deliver the same KE as 5,56 from a 10" barrel does at 100 m. But it definetly will be harder to shoot and the ammo count would be lower. For a well trained shooter for whom impact energy deliver is a more important criteria than shootability because he can reliable score hits either way this might be different. Such a person most likely is not part of the intended user group of a general issue PDW.

stancrist

From: stancrist

18-Sep

schnuersi said:

I am not convinced that a MP7 chambered in 7.5 or 5,7 for that matter would significantly differ in weight compared the original version in 4,6.

Since the 7.5 BRNO is a significantly larger and more powerful cartridge than the 4.6 HK, I figure the MP7 design would probably have to be "beefed up" to use it.  However, I could be wrong.

schnuersi said:

Furthermore I am absolutely convinced that it is possible to keep a 2.something kg weapon on the person all the time. Even 3 or 4 kg is absolutely doable. ... What weight can be carried on the person depends allmost entirely on training and getting used to.

Weight is not the only issue.  Size is at least as important, if not more so.

I question the idea that a SMG of the size and weight of an MP7 would be practical for carry on the person of every non-infantry soldier, all of the time.

schnuersi said:

BTW: I met plenty of people who argued the standard issue service pristol is to heavy to be kept on the person all the time... if we concider these people to be correct effectively no usefull weapon can achieve this requirement.

LOL.

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Well, the infantry are far more likely than "all other personnel" to have to engage the enemy with small arms. Would you focus PDW design on the needs of the "all other personnel" who are unlikely to ever be in combat?

Because its not for infantry to use. Infantry troops have, carbines, rifles, DMRs, LMGs, GLs etc to fight an infantry fight. Why would they need an additional weapon? Why should the one weapon intended for everybody else be designed to infantry specifications...

It shouldn't.  I misunderstood your earlier comment.

schnuersi said:

A PDW is an emergeny self defense weapon. Its purpose is to be there when needed and give the user a chance to defend himself and buy time until a serious infantry or heavy weapon can be brought to bear. This is why IMHO compactness and carryability are paramount.

As I think I've said in the past, IMHO "compactness and carryability" matter to very few military occupations. 

The only jobs that come to mind which truly need a lightweight, compact PDW are armored vehicle crewmen.

Clerks, cooks and most other non-infantry do not actually need to have a weapon on their person at all times.

  • Edited 18 September 2022 15:35  by  stancrist
stancrist

From: stancrist

19-Sep

No PDW proponents have comments?  Perhaps I should have phrased the above as questions.

Are "compactness and carryability" actually needed by the vast majority of military occupations? 

Other than armored vehicle crewmen, which personnel truly need a lightweight, compact PDW?

Why do you think most non-infantry actually need to have a weapon on their person at all times?

autogun

From: autogun

20-Sep

What about infantrymen whose primary task is deploying weapons such as anti-tank or AA missiles, grenade launchers or anything else other than a rifle or LMG?

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

20-Sep

Just my 2 cents:

PDW is a role. depending on circumstances, this role can be performed by a variety of weapons, from pistols to standard assault rifles. Any "one size fits all' approach, as usual, will create a solution which is less than ideal in every specific circumstance, for one reason or another

So, in reality, there should be several different options for the PDW, depending on the specifics of every non-rifleman which may need a weapon for defensive use.

For example, a grenadier or short-range ATGM crew member would be best served with a shortened variant of the standard issue assault rifle. The designated marksman with a moderately bulky semi-auto rifle would be best served with a compact subgun. Ditto vehicle crews. And so on.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20-Sep

autogun said:

What about infantrymen whose primary task is deploying weapons such as anti-tank or AA missiles, grenade launchers or anything else other than a rifle or LMG?

For armies equipped with relatively lightweight carbines, wouldn't the standard individual weapon be the best option for ATGM gunners and such?

autogun

From: autogun

20-Sep

stancrist said:

For armies equipped with relatively lightweight carbines, wouldn't the standard individual weapon be the best option for ATGM gunners and such?

That depends. The US Army seems keen on adopting a bulky new infantry rifle which is anything but lightweight. 

The role of a grenadier is to place his/her grenades as accurately as possible. The bigger and heavier is the standard infantry rifle, the less weight is available for grenades, so the less effective the grenadier will be in the primary task.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20-Sep

mpopenker said:

PDW is a role. depending on circumstances, this role can be performed by a variety of weapons, from pistols to standard assault rifles.

Certainly, some individuals consider PDW to be a role.  However, others view PDW as a specific weapon type. 

In the US Army Small Arms Master Plan, the PDW is clearly a type of weapon, different from pistols and rifles.

mpopenker said:

Any "one size fits all' approach, as usual, will create a solution which is less than ideal in every specific circumstance, for one reason or another

So, in reality, there should be several different options for the PDW, depending on the specifics of every non-rifleman which may need a weapon for defensive use.

Yes, that seems logical.

mpopenker said:

For example, a grenadier or short-range ATGM crew member would be best served with a shortened variant of the standard issue assault rifle.

Concur.

mpopenker said:

The designated marksman with a moderately bulky semi-auto rifle would be best served with a compact subgun. Ditto vehicle crews.

I agree that a compact SMG seems best suited for vehicle crews, but why give an already heavily burdened infantryman 5-6 lbs more gun and ammo to carry, when he is already equipped with a very effective anti-personnel weapon?

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