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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 145228 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

18-Sep

schnuersi said:

I am not convinced that a MP7 chambered in 7.5 or 5,7 for that matter would significantly differ in weight compared the original version in 4,6.

Since the 7.5 BRNO is a significantly larger and more powerful cartridge than the 4.6 HK, I figure the MP7 design would probably have to be "beefed up" to use it.  However, I could be wrong.

schnuersi said:

Furthermore I am absolutely convinced that it is possible to keep a 2.something kg weapon on the person all the time. Even 3 or 4 kg is absolutely doable. ... What weight can be carried on the person depends allmost entirely on training and getting used to.

Weight is not the only issue.  Size is at least as important, if not more so.

I question the idea that a SMG of the size and weight of an MP7 would be practical for carry on the person of every non-infantry soldier, all of the time.

schnuersi said:

BTW: I met plenty of people who argued the standard issue service pristol is to heavy to be kept on the person all the time... if we concider these people to be correct effectively no usefull weapon can achieve this requirement.

LOL.

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Well, the infantry are far more likely than "all other personnel" to have to engage the enemy with small arms. Would you focus PDW design on the needs of the "all other personnel" who are unlikely to ever be in combat?

Because its not for infantry to use. Infantry troops have, carbines, rifles, DMRs, LMGs, GLs etc to fight an infantry fight. Why would they need an additional weapon? Why should the one weapon intended for everybody else be designed to infantry specifications...

It shouldn't.  I misunderstood your earlier comment.

schnuersi said:

A PDW is an emergeny self defense weapon. Its purpose is to be there when needed and give the user a chance to defend himself and buy time until a serious infantry or heavy weapon can be brought to bear. This is why IMHO compactness and carryability are paramount.

As I think I've said in the past, IMHO "compactness and carryability" matter to very few military occupations. 

The only jobs that come to mind which truly need a lightweight, compact PDW are armored vehicle crewmen.

Clerks, cooks and most other non-infantry do not actually need to have a weapon on their person at all times.

  • Edited 18 September 2022 15:35  by  stancrist
stancrist

From: stancrist

19-Sep

No PDW proponents have comments?  Perhaps I should have phrased the above as questions.

Are "compactness and carryability" actually needed by the vast majority of military occupations? 

Other than armored vehicle crewmen, which personnel truly need a lightweight, compact PDW?

Why do you think most non-infantry actually need to have a weapon on their person at all times?

autogun

From: autogun

20-Sep

What about infantrymen whose primary task is deploying weapons such as anti-tank or AA missiles, grenade launchers or anything else other than a rifle or LMG?

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

20-Sep

Just my 2 cents:

PDW is a role. depending on circumstances, this role can be performed by a variety of weapons, from pistols to standard assault rifles. Any "one size fits all' approach, as usual, will create a solution which is less than ideal in every specific circumstance, for one reason or another

So, in reality, there should be several different options for the PDW, depending on the specifics of every non-rifleman which may need a weapon for defensive use.

For example, a grenadier or short-range ATGM crew member would be best served with a shortened variant of the standard issue assault rifle. The designated marksman with a moderately bulky semi-auto rifle would be best served with a compact subgun. Ditto vehicle crews. And so on.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20-Sep

autogun said:

What about infantrymen whose primary task is deploying weapons such as anti-tank or AA missiles, grenade launchers or anything else other than a rifle or LMG?

For armies equipped with relatively lightweight carbines, wouldn't the standard individual weapon be the best option for ATGM gunners and such?

autogun

From: autogun

20-Sep

stancrist said:

For armies equipped with relatively lightweight carbines, wouldn't the standard individual weapon be the best option for ATGM gunners and such?

That depends. The US Army seems keen on adopting a bulky new infantry rifle which is anything but lightweight. 

The role of a grenadier is to place his/her grenades as accurately as possible. The bigger and heavier is the standard infantry rifle, the less weight is available for grenades, so the less effective the grenadier will be in the primary task.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20-Sep

mpopenker said:

PDW is a role. depending on circumstances, this role can be performed by a variety of weapons, from pistols to standard assault rifles.

Certainly, some individuals consider PDW to be a role.  However, others view PDW as a specific weapon type. 

In the US Army Small Arms Master Plan, the PDW is clearly a type of weapon, different from pistols and rifles.

mpopenker said:

Any "one size fits all' approach, as usual, will create a solution which is less than ideal in every specific circumstance, for one reason or another

So, in reality, there should be several different options for the PDW, depending on the specifics of every non-rifleman which may need a weapon for defensive use.

Yes, that seems logical.

mpopenker said:

For example, a grenadier or short-range ATGM crew member would be best served with a shortened variant of the standard issue assault rifle.

Concur.

mpopenker said:

The designated marksman with a moderately bulky semi-auto rifle would be best served with a compact subgun. Ditto vehicle crews.

I agree that a compact SMG seems best suited for vehicle crews, but why give an already heavily burdened infantryman 5-6 lbs more gun and ammo to carry, when he is already equipped with a very effective anti-personnel weapon?

stancrist

From: stancrist

20-Sep

autogun said:

The US Army seems keen on adopting a bulky new infantry rifle which is anything but lightweight.

Yes, but IMO it's unlikely that they would equip grenadiers and ATGM gunners with a PDW of different caliber.

Despite the weight, I would expect those personnel to get armed with the XM5 rifle, or at best an SBR variant.

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ETA:  Of course, that assumes grenadiers continue to use the single-shot M320 grenade launcher.  If a new, larger and heavier semi-auto weapon should be developed and fielded, a grenadier so equipped probably would carry no secondary weapon, as is typical of XM25 users seen in Afghanistan photos and video.

  • Edited 20 September 2022 23:37  by  stancrist
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

20-Sep

stancrist said:

No PDW proponents have comments?

Sorry I am bit short of free time currently. It somehow got lost.

stancrist said:

Why do you think most non-infantry actually need to have a weapon on their person at all times?

Well, it used to be a weapon at arms length or in easy reach with a few steps. Which used to mean a standard issue rifle nearby.

But with changes in to mode of warfare, the lack of seperation between friendlies and potential hostiles and a different approach to casulties came the armed at all times requirement. Which under the circumstances in the past two decades seemed sensible.
Since I am of the opinion that a traditional pistol is only a usefull weapon for a well trained user this is a bad choice for general issue for non infantry or even non combat personel. Yes, it would be possible to train cooks and clerks to this level but in my experiences with large organisations and the military in particular this seems very unrealistic.
The conclusion: a different kind weapon is needed. SBR and carbines IMHO are to large allready. Cooks and clerks (to stay with the example) will not keep such a weapon on the person all the time. Which would result in a fall back to the original situation of a weapon in easy reach which has been defined as not desirable or sustainable anymore. The conclusion to this IMHO is either a PDW of a size and shape like the MP7 or MP9 or some sort of stocked pistol. My prefered solution is the former.


Since the situation now has changed it is indeed questionable if the weapon on the person all the times is still sensible. Same with the issuing of handguns in addition to rifles to riflemen.

Another approach would have been to keep the sharp seperation between friendly military personell and foreigners. Under these conditions the weapon in easy reach approach would certainly have worked. But in their infinite wisdom the leaders of the western world decided this was not the way they wanted things to be handeld.

stancrist said:

Other than armored vehicle crewmen, which personnel truly need a lightweight, compact PDW?

Vehicle crews, not necessarily armored or even ground vehicles, really need such a weapon. If such a weapon is available the question IMHO rather is why not issue it to anybody else who doesn't need a rifle. SMGs used to be issued like this. At least to a certain degree and depending on nation. For non infantry personell a rifle is of little use. Their contribution in a fire fight with a rifle would be minimal. Especially in an environment where most vehicles, armored or not, are armed with a GPMG or HMG, so there are lots of MGs around, it makes more sense to equip the non infantry personell with the most compact weapon possible they still can effectively use for self defense and buy time for the MGs to be manned.

stancrist said:

Are "compactness and carryability" actually needed by the vast majority of military occupations?

If the approach is a weapon on the person all the times, my answer would be yes.
If its not there are certainly more options. For example the P90 beomes an intresting contender. Its certainly to big to be carried on the person all the time for most people and occupations. But for a in close reach type of weapon its a good choice. Its short and boxy shape makes it easy store, to handle and to grab. It has a high capacity magazine. Is easy to shoot and effective in the desired range spectrum.
Several more classical 9x19 SMGs also become an option. As would be 5,56 SBRs and carbines. It really depends on the exact circumstances, requirements and preferences.

stancrist

From: stancrist

21-Sep

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Why do you think most non-infantry actually need to have a weapon on their person at all times?

Well, it used to be a weapon at arms length or in easy reach with a few steps. Which used to mean a standard issue rifle nearby.

But with changes in to mode of warfare, the lack of seperation between friendlies and potential hostiles and a different approach to casulties came the armed at all times requirement. Which under the circumstances in the past two decades seemed sensible.

The conclusion: a different kind weapon is needed. SBR and carbines IMHO are to large allready. Cooks and clerks (to stay with the example) will not keep such a weapon on the person all the time. Which would result in a fall back to the original situation of a weapon in easy reach which has been defined as not desirable or sustainable anymore. The conclusion to this IMHO is either a PDW of a size and shape like the MP7 or MP9 or some sort of stocked pistol.

Since the situation now has changed it is indeed questionable if the weapon on the person all the times is still sensible.

So, since the situation of the past two decades changed (due to the withdrawal from Afghanistan) and Western armies are now back to planning/preparing for conventional warfare, perhaps there is no longer a genuine need for a PDW of a size and shape like the MP7 or MP9?

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Other than armored vehicle crewmen, which personnel truly need a lightweight, compact PDW?

Vehicle crews, not necessarily armored or even ground vehicles, really need such a weapon.

Why?  For most air and ground vehicles, it looks like an MP7-size PDW is more in the "nice to have" class than a real need.

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