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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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FSV gun   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 8-May by graylion; 1308 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

8-May

graylion said:

If I was a small army and could only afford one FSV, I could to much worse.

Small armies do not make attractive customers for purpose designed equipment.
This is why things like the Lynx FSV or CV90 with large caliber guns are offered. Small militaries are allmost only drive by cost. Effectiveness of the individual piece of kit is of little importance to them. A purpose design produced in small quantities is way to expensive for them. Getting the required production numbers is really tough.
This is why most of the industry projects aimed at smaller militaries fail. Often its cheaper to buy equipment that is phased out by the large militaries or to buy a variant of somthing that allready is in production.

graylion said:

Other applications for a chassis like this AMOS/NEMO RCH 155 Millenium gun SPAAG with radar and stuff - Gepard II ;)

These are all proposed on Boxer chassis.
Chances are the new German SPAAG, should it materialise, would be some sort of self contained MANTIS on Boxer.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

8-May

The Ukraine situation has definitely validated multiple things I've thought were true for a long time.

I've been saying for years now that essentially a modernized AAI RDF LT is something western forces desperately need and Ukraine has done much to validate this.

I agree with you on even 105 probably being too large for this sort of application, though I think a smart person could put together an extremely compelling vehicle running a 105... It just wouldn't look anything like what's currently on offer or being proposed.

graylion

From: graylion

8-May

roguetechie said:

modernized AAI RDF LT

Gesundheit?

As regards 105 being too big, what about 90mm? What I find compelling is the assortment of ammo and the indirect fire option, where would not want much smaller than 105mm

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

8-May

90mm or even 75-76 seem like sweet spots to me.

The AAI rdf LT was essentially the precursor to the M8 that was for a marine program iirc and had an ares 75 or 90mm CT autocannon originally slated to fire at 120 rpm and an ability to fire at +80 degree elscao in a turret bookended by two 4 packs of either Hydras or rbs 70 missiles.

It was meant to be air transportable and have an adiabatic diesel engine which was later swapped out for a turbine because the diesel never materialized.

The turret was fully unmanned in some versions.

I feel like with the threats we currently face, and which will only get worse from here forward, a relatively straightforward modernization of this basic platform could serve us quite well.

I imagine a modernized version would likely weigh in at more like 30 tons, have a crew of 3, and be tied into the new American battle management system pretty heavily while also sporting something like the rada radars we're seeing installed on other platforms.

You could also probably do a modern version on Bradley components etc even.

graylion

From: graylion

8-May

roguetechie said:

AAI rdf LT

Having now looked it up, it does look rather interesting. And that would be a ood starting chassis too.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

8-May

graylion said:

As regards 105 being too big, what about 90mm? What I find compelling is the assortment of ammo and the indirect fire option, where would not want much smaller than 105mm

105 mm is not too big per se. It depends on what you want to shoot, what effect you want and how much ammo you want/need to carry.

The ammo for the 105 mm L7 is pretty big. Because the gun is designed to get high KE for armor penetration. For firesupport this is unnecessary. Unfortunately nowadays the armor piercing capability of the 105 is limited. So chances are high you get a gun and ammo combo that is to big for what you actually want and need.

With most 90 mm guns its more or less the same. Allthough there are lightweigh 90 mm guns that are not optimised for KE around. The HE shells of these guns are pretty powerfull.

Traditionally the sweet spot for direct fire support purposes ist 75 mm/3 inch. The shells are powerfull enough to deal with pretty much every kind of field fortification and have a good area of effect.
 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

8-May

roguetechie said:

The AAI rdf LT was essentially the precursor to the M8 that was for a marine program iirc and had an ares 75 or 90mm CT autocannon originally slated to fire at 120 rpm and an ability to fire at +80 degree elscao in a turret bookended by two 4 packs of either Hydras or rbs 70 missiles.

If I recall correct the last version carried two pods of four Stinger SAMs each.
70 mm rockts IMHO make little sense for a 75 or 90 mm main gun. The rockets add nothing the gun can not do.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

8-May

graylion said:

it does look rather interesting.

Yes it does.

graylion said:

And that would be a ood starting chassis too.

Keep in mind the vehicle and concept are more than 30 years old now. At best it can give very basic inspiration.

Part of the RDF LT concept was to have very thin armor. The vehicle was supposed to move all the time and be hard to hit. This way it should not need armor.
The rapid fire 75 mm was directly linked to this concept. It should fire 3 round bursts that would achieve the same accuracy as a single shot 105 mm (then standard MBT armament) fired from a standing tank only from the fast moving LT.


These concepts are rather... bold. Allready back then. Nowadays they are unsustainable. Especially with modern FCS the idea of being hard to hit because of high speeds is outright rediculous. The concept to saturate an area of opperation with lots of light tanks so losses can be sustained while the LTs punch above their weight class also is not sustainable. Survivability trumps everything nowadays.

While the 75 mm ARES gun has comparale penetration with APFSDS of its time to the 105 L7 with APs its no where near the level of power required today for AT work.

The concept would have to be reworked conciderably.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

8-May

graylion said:

What I like about the 3105 is the maximum angle of 42° which gives it rudimentary indirect fire capability.

I don't think that is a good idea.
To be effective at indirect fire it takes a lot more than just being able to raise the gun up.
A high velocity piece also if pretty bad at most indirect fire missions.

For indirect fire a purpose build vehicle is the better choice IMHO. Direct fire capability is secondary in this case.
Somthing like this is an intresting concept:

graylion

From: graylion

8-May

schnuersi said:

With most 90 mm guns its more or less the same. Allthough there are lightweigh 90 mm guns that are not optimised for KE around. The HE shells of these guns are pretty powerfull. Traditionally the sweet spot for direct fire support purposes ist 75 mm/3 inch. The shells are powerfull enough to deal with pretty much every kind of field fortification and have a good area of effect.

again with the indirect fire option? or what about Cockerill 90 LP?

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