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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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MGs   Small Arms <20mm

Started 9-May by graylion; 9715 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

10-May

schnuersi said:

The Bundeswehr MG 3 cycles at 1200 rpm.

Awesome. Are they still in production?

graylion

From: graylion

10-May

nincomp said:

From what I recall, the 8.5mm machine gun just does not add enough capability to worth the trouble.  The bullet is to0 small to carry enough HE for anti-material roles, so it can't really replace the 50 BMG.

How often does .50 HE get used?

autogun

From: autogun

10-May

graylion said:

How often does .50 HE get used?

Despite various tests in WW2, the US never did adopt a .50 HE bullet. However, the current "business load" seems to be the MK 211, a version of the Nammo multipurpose (SAPHEI).

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10-May

gatnerd said:

Are they still in production?

That is the problem.
They are but not in Germany. As far as I know Turkey and Pakistan do still manufacture the MG3 large scale.

In Germany only replacement parts are manufactured on demand in small batches... if at all.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10-May

graylion said:

Like the FN Evolys?

Looks flimsy to me.

I have no information about this gun besides what the hompage says. Maybe its great maybe not. We will have to wait and see.

But I do want to point out that this as opposed to the successfull 7,62 GPMGs used in the LMG role the Evolys is NOT GP. Its LMG only. It also has a 16" barrel of rifle profile. Which means its sustained fire capability will be very limited. Its advertised as "handles like a rifle" so its seems its designed for a very special niche. It might be great in it. The question is if there is any serious demand.

graylion

From: graylion

10-May

schnuersi said:

graylion said: Like the FN Evolys? Looks flimsy to me. I have no information about this gun besides what the hompage says. Maybe its great maybe not. We will have to wait and see. But I do want to point out that this as opposed to the successfull 7,62 GPMGs used in the LMG role the Evolys is NOT GP. Its LMG only. It also has a 16" barrel of rifle profile. Which means its sustained fire capability will be very limited. Its advertised as "handles like a rifle" so its seems its designed for a very special niche. It might be great in it. The question is if there is any serious demand.

Time to define what we mean by LMG? I was mostly thinking SAW, leaving the GPMG role to the MMG.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

10-May

I believe it's very possible to make a very light machine gun that's "not flimsy" it just won't look like much like an mg4 mg5 or an evolys.

I think schnuersi and I both agree on mg4 and mg5 being far from ideal.

I also think one way you could get something both light and high fire rate is by going the "mg45" the cetme Ameli sorta shows the possibilities in this regard, especially being pretty freakishly light for a mostly steel gun.

There's definitely ways to do what's essentially a super Ameli in a major caliber without increasing the weight a whole bunch.

This is not my personal preferred solution but I can't pretend it wouldn't be workable, it would actually work very well and be very low risk.

My preference is for a 235/248 revamp which can also be stupid light, and schnuersi will be happy to know that in a newer iteration there's absolutely nothing preventing a much higher rof.

Machine gun theory and practice is an interesting subject all around

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

10-May

My question is how much demand are we actually going to see for mmg's going forward?

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10-May

graylion said:

Time to define what we mean by LMG

A LMG is a machine gun fired from bipod.

Personally I distinguish SAWs for LMG by using the former term for SCHV LMGs like the MG4 or the Minimi and the latter for full power rifle caliber MGs like the MG3, MG5 or MAG. A MMG is a full power rifle caliber MG fired from mount/tripod.
A GPMG is a MG designed to fullfill the LMG and MMG depending on accessories.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10-May

roguetechie said:

I think schnuersi and I both agree on mg4 and mg5 being far from ideal.

Yes we do.

roguetechie said:

I also think one way you could get something both light and high fire rate is by going the "mg45" the cetme Ameli sorta shows the possibilities in this regard, especially being pretty freakishly light for a mostly steel gun. There's definitely ways to do what's essentially a super Ameli in a major caliber without increasing the weight a whole bunch. This is not my personal preferred solution but I can't pretend it wouldn't be workable, it would actually work very well and be very low risk.

Yes a modern take on the MG45 concept could be very promising. Its basically the G3 working principle of roller delay used in a MG.
The advantage is there are few moving parts, all movement is linear,no gas system at all and few parts in general. This could result in a very light yet rubust and simple weapon.

The drawback is of course that roller delayed weapons are somewhat ammo sensitive.

The two guns closest real guns to the MG45 are propably the SIG 710 and the Rheinmetall MG 60. But being Swiss and ~70 years old its still pretty heavy. They managed to increase the weight of the MG42 by allmost 5 kg when adapting and modifying it into the MG51. The MG 60 only weights ~8 kg in the LMG configuration. As a '60 design (hence the name).
 

roguetechie said:

My preference is for a 235/248 revamp which can also be stupid light, and schnuersi will be happy to know that in a newer iteration there's absolutely nothing preventing a much higher rof.

The intresting thing about the XM235 IMHO is the concept of a basically self contained system that is housed in a thin protective shell and equiped with accessories. This allows for conciderable freedom of design. The concept also is independen of working principle and caliber.

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