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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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MGs   Small Arms <20mm

Started 9/5/22 by graylion; 10364 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10/5/22

graylion said:

Time to define what we mean by LMG

A LMG is a machine gun fired from bipod.

Personally I distinguish SAWs for LMG by using the former term for SCHV LMGs like the MG4 or the Minimi and the latter for full power rifle caliber MGs like the MG3, MG5 or MAG. A MMG is a full power rifle caliber MG fired from mount/tripod.
A GPMG is a MG designed to fullfill the LMG and MMG depending on accessories.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10/5/22

roguetechie said:

I think schnuersi and I both agree on mg4 and mg5 being far from ideal.

Yes we do.

roguetechie said:

I also think one way you could get something both light and high fire rate is by going the "mg45" the cetme Ameli sorta shows the possibilities in this regard, especially being pretty freakishly light for a mostly steel gun. There's definitely ways to do what's essentially a super Ameli in a major caliber without increasing the weight a whole bunch. This is not my personal preferred solution but I can't pretend it wouldn't be workable, it would actually work very well and be very low risk.

Yes a modern take on the MG45 concept could be very promising. Its basically the G3 working principle of roller delay used in a MG.
The advantage is there are few moving parts, all movement is linear,no gas system at all and few parts in general. This could result in a very light yet rubust and simple weapon.

The drawback is of course that roller delayed weapons are somewhat ammo sensitive.

The two guns closest real guns to the MG45 are propably the SIG 710 and the Rheinmetall MG 60. But being Swiss and ~70 years old its still pretty heavy. They managed to increase the weight of the MG42 by allmost 5 kg when adapting and modifying it into the MG51. The MG 60 only weights ~8 kg in the LMG configuration. As a '60 design (hence the name).
 

roguetechie said:

My preference is for a 235/248 revamp which can also be stupid light, and schnuersi will be happy to know that in a newer iteration there's absolutely nothing preventing a much higher rof.

The intresting thing about the XM235 IMHO is the concept of a basically self contained system that is housed in a thin protective shell and equiped with accessories. This allows for conciderable freedom of design. The concept also is independen of working principle and caliber.

graylion

From: graylion

10/5/22

schnuersi said:

XM235

One thing that struck me as a potential weight saver are pencil barrels. But of course you can't dump massive amounts of ammo through them - they will melt eventually. They seem to keep their zero very well though. Modern heat treating seems to be a game changer.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10/5/22

roguetechie said:

My question is how much demand are we actually going to see for mmg's going forward?

Well that is a big question.
IMHO the MMG is becoming more important than it used to be. Or rather its importance is now acnoledged again. For several reasons.
Volume fire weapons on allmost any vehicle are more important nowadays. During the Cold war era pintle mounted MGs where allmost everywhere. But they mostly where intended for AA self defense... or a moral measure in case of air attack. Now a general self defense weapon that can be used in case on an ambush or sudden contact is important. The importance of the MMG increased with the proliferation of RWS.
Forward bases, observation posts etc need to be guarded and defended. A primary role for MMGs.
MMGs are the one heavy weapon that is seldom restricted by ROEs. It can be made available in large numbers and at allmost any tactical level.
MMGs provide a lot of fire power with few men. Which is important for armies with low manpower and nations with aging populations and low manpower reserves.

The MMG including long range and indirect fire came back in Afghanistan. Now in Ukraine we also see massive use of these.

stancrist

From: stancrist

10/5/22

schnuersi said:

       graylion said: Time to define what we mean by LMG

A LMG is a machine gun fired from bipod.

Personally I distinguish SAWs for LMG by using the former term for SCHV LMGs like the MG4 or the Minimi and the latter for full power rifle caliber MGs like the MG3,

The drawback to making up one's own personal definitions is that it typically causes confusion.

A "SAW" (Squad Automatic Weapon) can be a SCHV LMG; SCHV automatic rifle; full power, rifle caliber LMG; full power, rifle caliber MMG; or full power, rifle caliber automatic rifle.

And not all machine guns fired from a bipod are LMGs.  Below is a M240 MMG fired from bipod.

stancrist

From: stancrist

10/5/22

schnuersi said:

The MMG including long range and indirect fire came back in Afghanistan.

That's interesting.  I never heard of indirect fire with machine guns having been done in Afghanistan.  Got link?

EmericD

From: EmericD

10/5/22

stancrist said:

That's interesting.  I never heard of indirect fire with machine guns having been done in Afghanistan.  Got link?

I know at least one French captain that, having probably read too much reports from WWI, tried to do that with an AAN-F1, but the results were absolutely not satisfying. The ballistic of the 147 gr ball loading is closer to the Mle1906 .30-06 than to the 8 mm Mle1898D... 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10/5/22

stancrist said:

The drawback to making up one's own personal definitions is that it typically causes confusion.

This is why I mentioned it. Just in case it might happen.

stancrist said:

A "SAW" (Squad Automatic Weapon) can be a SCHV LMG; SCHV automatic rifle; full power, rifle caliber LMG; full power, rifle caliber MMG; or full power, rifle caliber automatic rifle.

I tend to prefer technical descriptions. The role doctrinal ones usually change over time and are not the same anywhere else.

stancrist said:

And not all machine guns fired from a bipod are LMGs. Below is a M240 MMG fired from bipod.

As far as I knwo the M240 is a GPMG and when its used from bipod its used in the LMG role and if its used from tripod its in the MMG role. MMG being defined by the use of a mount and being rifle caliber.
In German nomenclature there isn't a MMG. It its fired from mount its a HMG. If not its an LMG. But internationally HMG is used for non rifle caliber weapons fired from mount.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

10/5/22

Could have been worse. He could have read some of the "three shots and then steel" stuff that was popular for a while back in the 19th century.

graylion

From: graylion

10/5/22

EmericD said:

I know at least one French captain that, having probably read too much reports from WWI, tried to do that with an AAN-F1, but the results were absolutely not satisfying. The ballistic of the 147 gr ball loading is closer to the Mle1906 .30-06 than to the 8 mm Mle1898D... 

I come back to 8.5x63 ... ;)

as regards 12.7 SAPHEI. what about replacing with 30x113 as has been suggested? Them guns are pretty light.And there are gas powered ones available. So, if starting from nearly scratch, I'd go
 

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