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Armed forces covenant   General Military Discussion

Started 12-Jul by graylion; 1352 views.
graylion

From: graylion

12-Jul

schnuersi said:

This has very little to do with the original question of the threat though.

Indeed, thanks for pointing that out :) Any insights on the original question? I do like the idea of turning invalids into office staff or similar.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

13-Jul

JPeelen said:

The defeat was no surprise and the non-hero status the obvious consequence.     The above statements will be considered outrageous by members of some other nations, which lack the sobering experience of being defeated in two World Wars.

I'm not sure how it is in Germany, but in the US, Firefighters are tremendously popular. Universally praised and getting quite a bit of affection from the ladies - full hero vibes. 

Are fire fighters held in similar high regard in Germany?

I ask because I've never heard anyone question what fires a firefighter goes to put out, nor are they held in poor regard should they fail to put out a fire in time. Even if they fail to put out a fire in a wharehouse full of dumpsters (aka a giant dumpster fire) the point is they went in and faced the fire. 

My take on the Afghan/Iraq and earlier Vietnam vets is the same. Those conflicts may have been massive dumpster fires that were unsuccessfully extinguished, but the men on the ground still went in and faced the fire, and are still very much deserving of our respect and admiration for doing so.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

13-Jul

graylion said:

Any insights on the original question?

Not behond what I wrote above.
I have to admit I find it difficult to grasp what the armed forces covenant actually does? Is it sort of a social service for soldiers funded by donations?

graylion said:

I do like the idea of turning invalids into office staff or similar.

This is what they do when you have the full professional soldier status in Germany and can't serve as a soldier anymore. For any health reasons. You can even get a retraining and switch to other departments but this is rather uncommon nowadays.

graylion

From: graylion

13-Jul

schnuersi said:

Any insights on the original question? Not behond what I wrote above. I have to admit I find it difficult to grasp what the armed forces covenant actually does? Is it sort of a social service for soldiers funded by donations?

For somebody as rules based as us Germans it is hard to graps ;) It is a lot of things I think - but mostly it is a commitment by whoever signs it to do right by vets

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

13-Jul

gatnerd said:

I'm not sure how it is in Germany, but in the US, Firefighters are tremendously popular. Universally praised and getting quite a bit of affection from the ladies - full hero vibes.

Its different.
Firemen or the Firebrigade as such is the most trusted government agency by quite a margine and the most trusted profession overall.
There is nothing close to the hero cult common in the US though. In general the word hero is very rarely used.

I never realised a special treatment of firemen by the female part of the population. There is a saying that wearing a uniform does make you attractive. From personal experience I can say there might be something to it. But its rather uncommon these days to see people off duty in uniform in public.


 

gatnerd said:

but the men on the ground still went in and faced the fire, and are still very much deserving of our respect and admiration for doing so.

This is different. The majority of the German population is indifferent to the missions abroad. There is and has been comparable little main stream media coverage. What has been there rarely focussed on the troops but more on the people and the country. Therefore there is little identification. This is done deliberatly because the fact that Germany fought a war in Afgahnistan had to be hidden from the majority of the population. If this would have become public knowledge there would have been an outcry demanding immediate withdrawal. Ot at least this is what the politicians feared.

From my experience if someone encounters a veteran who is recognised as such or identifies himself most people are intrested and have a rather respectfull attitude. Some don't but these are the minority and easy to spot. Its also age dependent. Since we used to have the draft older males usuallyf did serve. So they have some connection.
It used to be like this in a room full of strangers: you could allways start talking about football, cars and the military. This would build an instant connection. Sadly this now only works in a room full of men above age 35.

JPeelen

From: JPeelen

13-Jul

Schnuersi has already described the situation in Germany regarding firemen. I would like to add: 

Most of the fire brigade system in Germany is manned by  volunteers. Only towns above a certain size are required to have a professional fire brigade. But even these also have volunteer units. The firemen are well trained and -compared to current Bundeswehr state- well equipped. Their equipment actually is in working order. They are effective and therefore highly regarded.

In smaller towns, the fire brigade volunteers as a group are an important part of social life. The typical fireman/-woman is "one of us". As Schnuersi already wrote, this is far from the hero cult literally every soldier tells us about, who has travelled to the US in uniform. We have had our fair share of hero cult already.   

               

  

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

13-Jul

JPeelen said:

Most of the fire brigade system in Germany is manned by volunteers.

Yes you are absolutely right. I forgot to mention these. Since I grew up and live in a large town I tend to think about firemen as profesionals. But even the town I live in has several platoons of volunteers in addition to the professionals.

JPeelen said:

The typical fireman/-woman is "one of us".

To be honest there are so few firewomen that one can safely speak of firemen in general. There are conciderable more police women and female soldiers compared to female firefighters.
Just googeled it and it turns out my view is sort of influenced by my professional firebrigade thinking. The percentage of professional firewomen in Germany is under 2 %. But for the volunteers its ~10 %. Which is still not much but at least a significant part.

It should also be noted that several smaller towns and communities have serious troubles raising the required number of volunteer firefighters. Therefor in some cases an old law has been reinstated allowing a community or town to draft people into the firebrigade.

EmericD

From: EmericD

14-Jul

graylion said:

This strikes me as incredibly Anglosphere in that it is based on voluntary acts, not legal rights. I am wondering how non-Anglosphere countries address this issue?

Well, my 02 cents for France.

Remember that France was described as a "successful socialist country" ("not failed yet" would be closer to the truth), we were a state before being a nation.

In France, everything should start from the state (a "top down" approach, mostly because French people are too undisciplined to make a "bottom up" approach to work), so the French way of working is strict "top to bottom" management mixed with "bottom up" chaos and innovation.

Anyway, just like Germany, we have a universal health care system that is not linked to your employer, so you are not losing "rights" when you retire from the army, or any other organisation, or even private sector.

I started my "career" working for a public laboratory, then worked for a large private company, then a small business company, then now for the MoD, and those changes had a negligible impact on my health coverage.

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

14-Jul

EmericD said:

In France, everything should start from the state (a "top down" approach, mostly because French people are too undisciplined to make a "bottom up" approach to work), so the French way of working is strict "top to bottom" management mixed with "bottom up" chaos and innovation.

Russia is much the same

We have an universal healthcare that covers most everything, including the dental care, organs and joints replacements, life-supporting drugs and procedures etc etc

Everybody is entitled to it and in fact it is called "mandatory health insurance" which everybody must get free of charge

MoD also has some medical institutions and general healthcare clinics which usually offer same level of service as civilian ones, including medical acdemies that both offer education for doctors and special healthcare for MoD personnel

All firefighters are professionals, and our EmerCom (Ministry of Emergency Situations) has special schools and universities to train rescuers, firefighters and other emergency personnel at all levels, from the field operatives to planners and unit commanders.

As why most firefighters are men, I think the answer is obvious. It's a very hard work, with a lot depending on the physical strength and fitness. And regardless of the modern theories of bazilion of gender constructs, the basic built-in differences between male and female are still there.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

14-Jul

mpopenker said:

As why most firefighters are men, I think the answer is obvious. It's a very hard work, with a lot depending on the physical strength and fitness. And regardless of the modern theories of bazilion of gender constructs, the basic built-in differences between male and female are still there.

This is generally true and goes for a lot of professions. Its true for the military and police for example. Yet there are conciderable more females in these. This makes the professional firebrigade stand out.
I know the answer why. Its pretty simple really. The firebrigade never lowered their standards or introduced special standards for women. Everybody has to perform to the same standard. Which simply results in the vast majority of females being washed out of the application process.
In Germany there is one specific aditional requirement. To apply as professional firefighter it is a requirement to have a certificate of apprenticeship in a craft or technical vocation. Like carpenter, mechanic, locksmith etc. there are very few females in these fields to begin with.
Neither the police nor the military has such a requirement. Which vastly increases their base of applicants.

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