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From: Ishmael112Jan-21 8:20 PM 
To: All  (1 of 10) 
 14753.1 

On this day, January 21, 1977, President Jimmy Carter pardoned American Draft Dodgers who refused to serve during the War in Vietnam.  To obtain a pardon all that was necessary was to apply for one.   Still, many remained American Exiles in Canada and in other countries.  

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/president-carter-pardons-draft-dodgers?li_source=LI&li_medium=m2m-rcw-history

 
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From: DotsmanJan-23 7:25 PM 
To: Ishmael112  (2 of 10) 
 14753.2 in reply to 14753.1 

During the Vietnam war, I initially felt that the draft dodgers were nothing more than cowards afraid to fight for the nation.  I now view them and all of the protesters against the Vietnam war differently.  If it were not for them turning American sentiment against the war, I'm left to wonder how many more years would have been spent, and how many more lives would have been lost or ruined being engaged in a war that, in hindsight, we know we should never have gotten involved in in the first place.  The outcome turned out to be exactly the same except for all the blood and treasure wasted.

The lesson we should have learned from Vietnam was that if you have to go to war against another nation the goal should be to defeat it and cause its surrender.  While I'm on board with special ops missions based upon credible intelligence going after terrorists -- getting in and getting out -- it's a big mistake to do as George shitforbrains Bush did, and militarily occupy another country for the purpose of regime change or to be part of their civil war.  To do that means that you kill people in that country, and people killed have friends and relatives that don't appreciate them being killed.  It makes them mad enough to want to kill back, making targets of the occupiers.  Thus, all the wasted lives and wealth fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Turns out, Vietnam seems to have taught our leaders nothing.

 

 
From: Ishmael112Jan-23 8:24 PM 
To: Dotsman  (3 of 10) 
 14753.3 in reply to 14753.2 

There are lessons from Vietnam.  The main one is you don't don't go into a country without a clear way of getting out.  Many have learned that and other lessons; however George W. Bush is not one of them.  Had he only fought in Vietnam he would have seen things differently.  That can also be said of Bill Clinton.  

Most of all, when Clinton was running for President the issue of his evasion of the war in Vietnam became an issue.  But Clinton persuaded the American voters that it didn't matter.  Once that was done even what we should have learned from Vietnam was wasted.  

 

 
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From: DotsmanJan-24 11:47 AM 
To: Ishmael112  (4 of 10) 
 14753.4 in reply to 14753.3 

Other than stupid presidents who don't learn from history, I've wondered if Generals, with all these great toys to wage wars with, aren't a little too eager to look for places to try them out, making military action something other than the last viable option.  I hope that's not the case, and there are good reasons why it wouldn't be.  I think it more likely that it's chicken hawks like John Bolton, people who never had to put themselves into harm's way, that are way too willing to put others in harm's way as they strategize how to bring about results with a foreign nation.    

 

 
From: TurkeyMasterJan-24 12:49 PM 
To: Ishmael112  (5 of 10) 
 14753.5 in reply to 14753.3 

Ishmael112 said...There are lessons from Vietnam.  The main one is you don't don't go into a country without a clear way of getting out.  Many have learned that and other lessons; however George W. Bush is not one of them. 

I have been reminded far too many times of the lyrics of a famous protest rock song in 60's...."Wont be fooled again!", by the Who.  Love the Who.  The song was actually about being your on boss and to be careful of those coming to you to join their cause, whatever it is.  Pete Townshend was not against all causes, but against group think, and letting the emotions of the group seduce you, as he felt he was.   However, the song was so strong and popular that the words "We won't be fooled again." became for many an anti-war song, and for others something else entirely.   

Before I understood Townshend original meaning, I (and MANY others) accepted it as an anti-Vietnam war protest song.   Sadly, we often DO get fooled again and again, which is not a good testament to human nature.  Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.   You have to have a plan, an exit plan, and a time limit.  Wars are messy, not always going as planned, and often have unforeseen consequences.  

The Who was perhaps the fist group to used the synthesizer organ.   They used it in this song to good effect, and the long instrumental section toward the end with the organ was also when the lazier light displays were most active.   I suspect that that song might live forever.     

 

 
From: RebeccahQPJan-24 12:58 PM 
To: TurkeyMaster  (6 of 10) 
 14753.6 in reply to 14753.5 

It always seemed to me to be pretty specifically about the history of repeated revolutions and the predictable change from popular champion to despot in parts of the world without a stable government and a peaceful means of transferring power.  But easily a metaphor for other things.

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song
I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war
I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again, no, no
I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?
Yeah
There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting [party] on the left
Is now parting [party] on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight
I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again, no, no
Yeah
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
Source: LyricFind

Note: I think "parting" is a mistranscription of "party".

Rebeccah

  • Edited January 24, 2022 1:01 pm  by  RebeccahQP
 

 
From: TurkeyMasterJan-24 2:07 PM 
To: RebeccahQP  (7 of 10) 
 14753.7 in reply to 14753.6 

Are you read for this?  ;)

That is a  reasonable take on the lyics if nothing else is known about Townshend. Yes, it can mean that too, but I'll take the actual author's words for what sparked the original song.  I'll go into much more detail here for anyone interested.  

The song was sparked by three things.  One, it was about him being fooled by people who came to him.  That was part of the meaning.

The second thing that sparked the song was Woodstock.  Not the music, but the audience, whom Townshend thought of as gullible.  That view that after Woodstock and the "Summer of Love" everything would be different. He actually said that he felt like spitting on them for being so gullible.  Not a good sentiment for his fans, but that is how he felt about many of the "hippies" that  came to Woodstock.   He rejected that sentiment and wanted people to stand on their own two feet and not look for heroes/saviors.  
The song ends with this lyric:  
"Yeah
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss"

He is talking about  himself and telling people NOT to come to him, but to be your own boss.  
 

The  third part of the meaning was his view that the anti-establishment and anti-war movement of the 60's  did not work and people got hurt.   Keep in mind that   Nixon was then in power.  In other words, just after the 60's more conservative leaders were elected by in the US and in Great Brittan.  “revolution is not going to change anything in the long run, and people are going to get hurt.”  Townshend   The "fighting in the street" is as much about protesters in the street as it is about war.
 

Summarizing:  It was sparked by personal experience and his disappointment with people in the 60's "revolution", some of whom came  to him for leadership.  He was not interested. In his own original innocence, he was also taken advantage of, which he and his family greatly resented.  Yes, it was against the war as well, but this was in the context of a much broader and more important cautionary tale against being fooled by anyone or any movement.  Rather than being fooled or taken in by anyone or any movement, think for yourself. 

Pete Townshend was not your usual rock star.  He was not "look at how great I am" or "come to me for leadership" type, but rather an artist who was angry at his family being taken advantage of and disappointed about how gullible so many people (including some fans) seemed to be, and the harm this gullibility causes.  We need more like him. 

Some of my views are from long ago memories, but some of there are here as well:  https://www.songfacts.com/facts/the-who/wont-get-fooled-again

 

 
From: Ishmael112Jan-24 4:11 PM 
To: TurkeyMaster  (8 of 10) 
 14753.8 in reply to 14753.5 

In 1992 George H. W. Bush, a genuine war hero, was defeated by Bill Clinton, a draft dodger.  And of course Ross Perot was an essential player.  The 1992 election made it clear that the majority of American voters no longer were concerned with Vietnam.  That lesson was not lost to any politician who wished to win an elective office.  That is why the lesson of Vietnam is no longer important.   

 

 
From: NETIZEN_JJan-24 4:52 PM 
To: TurkeyMaster  (9 of 10) 
 14753.9 in reply to 14753.5 

>I (and MANY others) accepted it [Won't Get Fooled Again] as an anti-Vietnam war protest song.<

Oh my.

I never saw it that way.

I saw it as akin to Animal Farm - a warning to would-be violent revolutionaries like the SLA that kidnapped Patty Hearst, that all of their struggle  and violence and sacrifice would likely come to naught - meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

"“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”"

N_J

 

 
From: RebeccahQPJan-24 6:54 PM 
To: NETIZEN_J  (10 of 10) 
 14753.10 in reply to 14753.9 

More of a warning to the would-be followers of those revolutionaries, but yeah.

 

Rebeccah

 

 

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