Faith Issues,News & Religions -  Freewill or Predestination? (619 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJul-4 8:55 AM 
To: Secundus555  (1 of 39) 
 38359.1 

Religions are based on Freewill or Predestination, which is correct? The answer is, in my opinion, is both are right on somethings, both are wrong on somethings. The truth is that the bible clearly shows that a few were predestined and most are freewill. Let's take David, he's the only one in the OT or NT that says he had the Holy Spirit from the womb on. This shows God "predestined" David to serve Him. A big difference between the OT and the NT is that David is the only person said to have the Holy Spirit, in the NT anyone can be born again and get it. 

The things that show us David was predestined is that 

   He was born with the Holy Spirit

   His life was full of miracles used in direct service to God. 

   David was predestined to be the King of Israel. 

   He speaks of having the Holy Spirit and when he sinned says he's scared God will take it from him. 

Paul was NOT predestined he

   Hated Christ

   Persecuted and murdered those who followed Christ

   Paul was "captured" on the road by God

   Paul says he was a "prisoner to Christ" held in His service

Paul was NOT predestined, but chosen to serve God, Paul used his freewill to persecute Christ and His followers. 

If we compare ourselves to David, we don't have any of these things, we were not predestined, so predestination is for only a very few people, the rest of us are in freewill to make and live our lives as we choose. We see that Paul was NOT predestined and used his freewill to persecute Christ and His followers. We can use our freewill to accept or reject God and to work in His service or not, it's our call. What do you think? 


 

 
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From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJul-25 8:54 AM 
To: AryehLeib613  (2 of 39) 
 38359.2 in reply to 38359.1 

Hi Len, please read the first post. What do you think about King David having the Holy Spirit? What the purpose of the Holy Spirit? Is it around today? Does the average Jew have the Holy Spirit? Thanks? 


 

 

 
From: AryehLeib613Jul-25 9:24 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (3 of 39) 
 38359.3 in reply to 38359.2 

Question: Why does the Jewish faith not believe in the Holy Spirit?

Answer: Judaism does believe that God’s Spirit (or Presence) is Holy. Judaism does not, however, believe in a separate manifestation of God referred to as the “Holy Spirit”.

The words “Ruach HaKodesh” (i.e. “The Holy Spirit”) never appear in the Hebrew Scriptures.

There are three times in the Scriptures where there is mention, however, of God’s Holy Spirit:

Psalm 51:13 – Ruach Kadshecha – Your holy spirit;
Isaiah 63:10 – Ruach Kadsho – His holy spirit;
Isaiah 63:11 – Ruach Kadsho – His holy spirit

There are only these three occurrences of the term “Holy Spirit”—hardly enough to create a doctrine, and definitely not indicating anything that we did not already understand about God. Because all three of these passages are lacking the definite article (i.e. the word “the”), the term in those three instances is understood to simply refer to God’s Spirit being Holy.

In later Jewish literature, the “Holy Spirit” is connected to a spirit of Prophecy. But either way, there is no reason to make the assumption that, somehow, this Holy spirit of G-d is a separate entity. There is no support for the concept of the trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Respectfully,

Rabbi Azriel Schreiber

  • Edited July 25, 2018 9:25 pm  by  AryehLeib613
 

 
From: AryehLeib613Jul-25 11:05 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (4 of 39) 
 38359.4 in reply to 38359.2 

The word, "spirit," appears in the Tanakh 249 times and it does not refer to a separate part of the "Trinity Godhead" as in Christianity.

When the Bible says "God is One" (Deut. 6:4) that means He is indivisible into parts; either physical or spiritual. Bible language is one humans can understand but it is not necessarily literal. Humans are both physical and spiritual but God is indivisible.

So what does the following mean?

And Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And a spirit of the Lord passed over David from that day forth, (1 Sam. 16:13)

 So Pharaoh said to his servants, "Will we find [anyone] like this, a man in whom there is the spirit of God? (Gen. 41:38)

Or the following about the Messiah:

The spirit of The Lord shall alight upon him: a spirit of wisdom and insight, a spirit of counsel and valor, a spirit of devotion and reverence for The Lord. (Is. 11:2)

"Spirit" is related to "soul" which appears in the Tanakh 412 times. Spirit could be considered the active part of the passive soul for a human. Even animals have souls, though they are different from human souls. Even an atheist has a spirit but not Godly holy spirit.

Humans are not remotely comparable to God. However, we are closer to Him, in certain respects, than all animals. While God created us like he created animals He did something unique for Adam that caused Adam to be in "God's image." The critical addition was God’s blowing into Adam's nostrils a "breath of life" (neshama in Hebrew), a modern human soul, and adding that to the  the soul common to all animals (nefesh in Hebrew). This follows the Nachmanides commentary to Gen. 1:26: And God said: “Let us make man,” and to Gen. 2:7: And He breathed into his nostrils the  breath of life. It is  the neshama that  sets us apart and above the animals.

Perception, Logical reasoning, cognition, speech, ability to do complex planning and similar traits unique to humans put us one step, only one, between animals and God. While God does all these things, and more, He does not do them sequentially as humans do.

When a human is said to have a holy spirit it means he is acting in a way that God wants him to act. We could say he is being inspired by God.

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJul-26 8:51 AM 
To: AryehLeib613  (5 of 39) 
 38359.5 in reply to 38359.3 

Question: Why does the Jewish faith not believe in the Holy Spirit?

Answer: Judaism does believe that God’s Spirit (or Presence) is Holy. Judaism does not, however, believe in a separate manifestation of God referred to as the “Holy Spirit”.

bob>Hi Len, when David says he had the "holy Spirit" in the womb all thru his life, I think you agree that he did. I assume your thinking David had special leading from God, which I call the "holy Spirit" which also gave the prophets words to speak. I can see how God and His spirit are viewed as one, Christians have this complicated idea as well. 

The words “Ruach HaKodesh” (i.e. “The Holy Spirit”) never appear in the Hebrew Scriptures.

There are three times in the Scriptures where there is mention, however, of God’s Holy Spirit:

Psalm 51:13 – Ruach Kadshecha – Your holy spirit;
Isaiah 63:10 – Ruach Kadsho – His holy spirit;
Isaiah 63:11 – Ruach Kadsho – His holy spirit

There are only these three occurrences of the term “Holy Spirit”—hardly enough to create a doctrine, and definitely not indicating anything that we did not already understand about God. Because all three of these passages are lacking the definite article (i.e. the word “the”), the term in those three instances is understood to simply refer to God’s Spirit being Holy.

bob>I see. 

In later Jewish literature, the “Holy Spirit” is connected to a spirit of Prophecy. But either way, there is no reason to make the assumption that, somehow, this Holy spirit of G-d is a separate entity. There is no support for the concept of the trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Respectfully,

Rabbi Azriel Schreiber

bob>Thanks Len, I think Moses had the "Holy Spirit" in the womb and at other times too, Josephus says God "re-formed" Moses while he was in the womb to be beautiful, which may be a reason why he was adopted and accepted by the Egyptian King and his family. 


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJul-26 8:57 AM 
To: AryehLeib613  (6 of 39) 
 38359.6 in reply to 38359.4 

The word, "spirit," appears in the Tanakh 249 times and it does not refer to a separate part of the "Trinity Godhead" as in Christianity.

When the Bible says "God is One" (Deut. 6:4) that means He is indivisible into parts; either physical or spiritual. Bible language is one humans can understand but it is not necessarily literal. Humans are both physical and spiritual but God is indivisible.

bob>I can see how both our concepts are not that far off, though you will think they are. 

So what does the following mean?

And Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And a spirit of the Lord passed over David from that day forth, (1 Sam. 16:13)

bob>So this is where the "holy Spirit" was upon David all the time, he did not have it from the womb on, right? 

 So Pharaoh said to his servants, "Will we find [anyone] like this, a man in whom there is the spirit of God? (Gen. 41:38)

Or the following about the Messiah:

The spirit of The Lord shall alight upon him: a spirit of wisdom and insight, a spirit of counsel and valor, a spirit of devotion and reverence for The Lord. (Is. 11:2)

"Spirit" is related to "soul" which appears in the Tanakh 412 times. Spirit could be considered the active part of the passive soul for a human. Even animals have souls, though they are different from human souls. Even an atheist has a spirit but not Godly holy spirit.

bob> Spirit and soul are often mixed together. Some consider the soul to be one's personality or being and the spirit to be the spirit or visa versa. 

Humans are not remotely comparable to God. However, we are closer to Him, in certain respects, than all animals. While God created us like he created animals He did something unique for Adam that caused Adam to be in "God's image." The critical addition was God’s blowing into Adam's nostrils a "breath of life" (neshama in Hebrew), a modern human soul, and adding that to the  the soul common to all animals (nefesh in Hebrew). This follows the Nachmanides commentary to Gen. 1:26: And God said: “Let us make man,” and to Gen. 2:7: And He breathed into his nostrils the  breath of life. It is  the neshama that  sets us apart and above the animals.

bob>Great point! 

Perception, Logical reasoning, cognition, speech, ability to do complex planning and similar traits unique to humans put us one step, only one, between animals and God. While God does all these things, and more, He does not do them sequentially as humans do.

When a human is said to have a holy spirit it means he is acting in a way that God wants him to act. We could say he is being inspired by God.

bob>It could be that person is lead by God's spirit, which is holy. Thanks


 

 

 
From: AryehLeib613Jul-26 5:47 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (7 of 39) 
 38359.7 in reply to 38359.5 

bob>Hi Len, when David says he had the "holy Spirit" in the womb all thru his life, I think you agree that he did. I assume your thinking David had special leading from God, which I call the "holy Spirit" which also gave the prophets words to speak.

bob>Thanks Len, I think Moses had the "Holy Spirit" in the womb and at other times too

You need to provide biblical citations for me to respond.

 

 
From: AryehLeib613Jul-26 5:51 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (8 of 39) 
 38359.8 in reply to 38359.6 

bob>It could be that person is lead by God's spirit, which is holy. Thanks

You are welcome but I don't know if I answered your question.

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJul-27 8:51 AM 
To: AryehLeib613  (9 of 39) 
 38359.9 in reply to 38359.7 

bob>Hi Len, when David says he had the "holy Spirit" in the womb all thru his life, I think you agree that he did. I assume your thinking David had special leading from God, which I call the "holy Spirit" which also gave the prophets words to speak.

bob>Thanks Len, I think Moses had the "Holy Spirit" in the womb and at other times too

You need to provide biblical citations for me to respond.

bob>>Joseph was a Jewish historian, as you know, we won't find his words in the OT or NT. He mentions that Moses was re-formed to be beautiful in the womb and that he was born circumcised so the Jews would understand he was "special" to God, have you heard of these things? 


 

 

 
From: AryehLeib613Jul-27 9:03 AM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (10 of 39) 
 38359.10 in reply to 38359.9 

You must mean Josephus.

I had not heard those things or studied Josephus. They are not in the Bible.

 

 
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