Morality, Life & Social Issues -  Pope Says No Death Penalty (211 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member IconAug-2 3:57 PM 
To: All  (1 of 16) 
 38453.1 

 Pope Francis has changed Catholic Church teaching to fully reject the death penalty, the Vatican announced Thursday, saying it would work to abolish capital punishment worldwide. 

The change addresses several sentences of the catechism, the compendium of Catholic beliefs, and it sharply amplifies the church’s opposition to a policy that is heavily debated around the world and used in parts of the United States.

The church’s updated teaching states that capital punishment is “inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person.” Previously, the church allowed for the death penalty in very rare cases, only as a means of “defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

Francis has for years been a vocal critic of the death penalty, calling it an “inhuman measure,” but his latest move places the issue toward the forefront of his efforts to overhaul and modernize Roman Catholic Church, even as it struggles to contend with a new wave of sexual abuse allegations. The move could also reshape discussion about the issue in the United States, where some Catholic politicians — such as Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, whose state carries out the highest number of executions — have supported the death penalty.

 

 

 

     

Psalm119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path"

 
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From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostAug-3 12:03 PM 
To: Corkybob  (2 of 16) 
 38453.2 in reply to 38453.1 

 Pope Francis has changed Catholic Church teaching to fully reject the death penalty, the Vatican announced Thursday, saying it would work to abolish capital punishment worldwide. 

The change addresses several sentences of the catechism, the compendium of Catholic beliefs, and it sharply amplifies the church’s opposition to a policy that is heavily debated around the world and used in parts of the United States.

The church’s updated teaching states that capital punishment is “inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person.” Previously, the church allowed for the death penalty in very rare cases, only as a means of “defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

Francis has for years been a vocal critic of the death penalty, calling it an “inhuman measure,” but his latest move places the issue toward the forefront of his efforts to overhaul and modernize Roman Catholic Church, even as it struggles to contend with a new wave of sexual abuse allegations. The move could also reshape discussion about the issue in the United States, where some Catholic politicians — such as Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, whose state carries out the highest number of executions — have supported the death penalty.


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostAug-3 12:04 PM 
To: Corkybob  (3 of 16) 
 38453.3 in reply to 38453.1 

Pope Francis keeps saying things that oppose the bible and CC teaching. Now, he's against and has changed CC teaching on the death penalty. Francis is saying it should NEVER be given, NEVER, what do you think? 


 

 

 
From: Kathleen (neonlight) DelphiPlus Member IconAug-4 9:18 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (4 of 16) 
 38453.4 in reply to 38453.3 

Hi Bob,

I know Corky will answer, but I found this site helps understand what can change and what cannot change in Catholic Doctrine (he also links to the actual document, which is worth reading):

Fr. Dwight Longenecker:https://dwightlongenecker.com/catholic-church-teaching-can-it-change/ - "Doctrines and moral teachings that are part of the natural law or the law of God revealed in the Scriptures cannot be changed. Disciplines of the church and secondary teachings that arose from particular cultural demands can change and exceptions can be made."

He also says that "Folks are saying, “But he reversed the rule on capital punishment.” I don’t think so.  Read the document. " The document is worth a read, and isn't very long.

And he points out that "Rather than a decision on capital punishment per se, it is argued that this is a full development of the doctrine of the innate dignity of each human being."

He has a few other posts that look interesting.....

Kathleen

 

 

 
From: CorkybobAug-6 12:11 AM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (5 of 16) 
 38453.5 in reply to 38453.2 

dear Bob,

Bob>>

Pope Francis has changed Catholic Church teaching to fully reject the death penalty, the Vatican announced Thursday, saying it would work to abolish capital punishment worldwide. 

The change addresses several sentences of the catechism, the compendium of Catholic beliefs, and it sharply amplifies the church’s opposition to a policy that is heavily debated around the world and used in parts of the United States.

The church’s updated teaching states that capital punishment is “inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person.” Previously, the church allowed for the death penalty in very rare cases, only as a means of “defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

Francis has for years been a vocal critic of the death penalty, calling it an “inhuman measure,” but his latest move places the issue toward the forefront of his efforts to overhaul and modernize Roman Catholic Church, even as it struggles to contend with a new wave of sexual abuse allegations. The move could also reshape discussion about the issue in the United States, where some Catholic politicians — such as Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, whose state carries out the highest number of executions — have supported the death penalty

Not really.  The idea has been that if the state could not control lawlessness and the only way to combat it would be to execute the then in order to protect the society it would be permissible to do so.  With today's advances and prisons we can keep murderers and theives 

 

 

 
From: CorkybobAug-6 12:23 AM 
To: Kathleen (neonlight) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (6 of 16) 
 38453.6 in reply to 38453.4 

dear Kathleen,

The article that you site is within the teachings of the Catholic Church and is What I have been stating.  Things like priest celibacy and no meat on Fridays are discipline values that are changeable.  What isn't are doctrines and dogmas of the Church.  The Doctrines are those teachings that the Apostles gave to the Church (like the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit being God) where as the Trinity and the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son is dogma, that is the development of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit being God.

pax

corkybob

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostAug-6 11:20 AM 
To: Kathleen (neonlight) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (7 of 16) 
 38453.7 in reply to 38453.4 

I know Corky will answer, but I found this site helps understand what can change and what cannot change in Catholic Doctrine (he also links to the actual document, which is worth reading):

Fr. Dwight Longenecker:https://dwightlongenecker.com/catholic-church-teaching-can-it-change/ - "Doctrines and moral teachings that are part of the natural law or the law of God revealed in the Scriptures cannot be changed. Disciplines of the church and secondary teachings that arose from particular cultural demands can change and exceptions can be made."

He also says that "Folks are saying, “But he reversed the rule on capital punishment.” I don’t think so.  Read the document. " The document is worth a read, and isn't very long.

And he points out that "Rather than a decision on capital punishment per se, it is argued that this is a full development of the doctrine of the innate dignity of each human being."

He has a few other posts that look interesting.....

bob>Hi, great post! The issue I have is that I take the bible as the foundation of truth, the Catholics, if I understand Corky correctly, do not. They say it's important, but the teachings of the "church" are more important. The Pope is going directly against the command of the bible to have and issue the death sentence. When Rome took over Israel from the Jews, it also took away the ability for the Jews to issue the death penalty. That's why the Jews took Jesus to the Romans and asked them to issue the death penalty on Him, the Jews weren't allowed to do it. Francis gets out of line often and changes Catholic teachings/dogma. He also said there is no hell, God makes people gay and ect. what do you think of him? 


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostAug-6 11:27 AM 
To: Corkybob  (8 of 16) 
 38453.8 in reply to 38453.6 

Pope Francis has changed Catholic Church teaching to fully reject the death penalty, the Vatican announced Thursday, saying it would work to abolish capital punishment worldwide. 

The change addresses several sentences of the catechism, the compendium of Catholic beliefs, and it sharply amplifies the church’s opposition to a policy that is heavily debated around the world and used in parts of the United States.

The church’s updated teaching states that capital punishment is “inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person.” Previously, the church allowed for the death penalty in very rare cases, only as a means of “defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

bob>Hi Corky, To me, justice has more than one part most of the time. When murder is committed, the punishment is "death" so that's as far as that issue goes, per the bible. If one robs someone, the OT says he must pay back the loss plus 25% restitution, so the punishment here is to pay back more than one took, but it could include jail or servitude for a time as well. So, here there is punishment AND restitution. With murder, there can't be restitution, the person killed can't be "restituted," I made up a new word!! 

Francis has for years been a vocal critic of the death penalty, calling it an “inhuman measure,” but his latest move places the issue toward the forefront of his efforts to overhaul and modernize Roman Catholic Church, even as it struggles to contend with a new wave of sexual abuse allegations. The move could also reshape discussion about the issue in the United States, where some Catholic politicians — such as Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, whose state carries out the highest number of executions — have supported the death penalty

bob>Oklahoma uses "death" too. I agree the CC needs to be "modernized" by changing it's dogma that are not in the bible. Priests not allowed to marry, Peter, who is called the first pope by the CC, was married. He is moving to Gay rights, which is against the bible. 

Not really.  The idea has been that if the state could not control lawlessness and the only way to combat it would be to execute the then in order to protect the society it would be permissible to do so.  With today's advances and prisons we can keep murderers and theives 

bob>That's a personal concept that does NOT follow the bible, in fact, it's directly against the bible. The "Church" should not be adjusted to society, but society should be adjusted to the bible. 

 


 

 

 
From: CorkybobAug-7 1:17 AM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (9 of 16) 
 38453.9 in reply to 38453.8 

dear Bob,

bob>Hi Corky, To me, justice has more than one part most of the time. When murder is committed, the punishment is "death" so that's as far as that issue goes, per the bible. If one robs someone, the OT says he must pay back the loss plus 25% restitution, so the punishment here is to pay back more than one took, but it could include jail or servitude for a time as well. So, here there is punishment AND restitution. With murder, there can't be restitution, the person killed can't be "restituted," I made up a new word!!

Do you know what the culture of death is Bob.  St Pope John Paul II mentioned it quite often.  It is a matter of culture killing someone in order to se a solution of a problem.  When a gang banger kills someone because that person disrespected him that is part of the culture of death.  When the state decides to put the person to death for revenge, whether it being the state or the realitives of the dead person, that is the culture of death.  Those people who do these things, whether illegally or legally, they find that their revenge is hollow.  Those that do find soluce are those who forgive the killer and ask for the person not to be put to death.  The people involved in the drama (the killer and the killed) become meaning for all involved.  A matter of evil overcomed by good.

The issue about it being in the bible has to be taken with a grain of salt.  For instance the bible tells the story of the daughter of Jacob who was raped by a rich man.  He fell in love with Jacobs daughter and and he and his parents asked her brothers for forgiveness.  The brothers said that in order for them to forgive the man that He and all of their people would have to be circumsized.  They agreed and were circumsized.  On the 3rd day (when they were their sorest, her brothers attacked the village putting everyone to the sword.  I don't think that you would think that this was the proper action but then nothing was said either for against this action.  It was a matter of history.

Bob>>bob>Oklahoma uses "death" too. I agree the CC needs to be "modernized" by changing it's dogma that are not in the bible. Priests not allowed to marry, Peter, who is called the first pope by the CC, was married. He is moving to Gay rights, which is against the bible.

All Catholic Dogma is based in the bible, inparticular the teachings of the Apostles.  Priests being celebate has worked all of these years, why change it?  

Pope Francis is not leaning towards gay rights.  He knows as well as every Catholic knows that being homosexual is not a sin.  Having a homosexual sex is just as sex with a heterosexual couple that are not married is a sin.  When asked about homosexual priests he said that that isn;t a question that is put on their priest card.  No one asks if someone has attraction towards women or men when they come in because the idea is celebscy.  It doesn't matter if a young man studying for the priesthood has an attraction for a man or woman because he will promise to God not to have sex with anyone.  He will become the fiance of Christ.

bob>That's a personal concept that does NOT follow the bible, in fact, it's directly against the bible. The "Church" should not be adjusted to society, but society should be adjusted to the bible

Only if we lived during the OT times.  In that era there were no jails or prisons.  The only thing that could be done for society was to allow the person to continue or to be put to death.  We have prisons now that we can take these people and they will disappear in the paperwork.  What is more Christian is tha tit gives the perp a chance to redeam himself.

pax

corkybob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostAug-7 9:49 AM 
To: Corkybob  (10 of 16) 
 38453.10 in reply to 38453.9 

bob>Hi Corky, To me, justice has more than one part most of the time. When murder is committed, the punishment is "death" so that's as far as that issue goes, per the bible. If one robs someone, the OT says he must pay back the loss plus 25% restitution, so the punishment here is to pay back more than one took, but it could include jail or servitude for a time as well. So, here there is punishment AND restitution. With murder, there can't be restitution, the person killed can't be "restituted," I made up a new word!!

Do you know what the culture of death is Bob.  St Pope John Paul II mentioned it quite often.  It is a matter of culture killing someone in order to se a solution of a problem.  When a gang banger kills someone because that person disrespected him that is part of the culture of death.

bob>The murderer is to be put to death, per the bible. 

  When the state decides to put the person to death for revenge,

bob>It's not done for revenge, the bible says the punishment for murder is death, vengeance is the Lord's. 

whether it being the state or the realitives of the dead person, that is the culture of death.

bob>In ancient times, the family could be punished along with the one who committed the crime, God said "eye for eye, ect" meaning the punishment was to equal the crime, not to be greater than the crime. Punishment is to be "JUST" or "Justice" 

  Those people who do these things, whether illegally or legally, they find that their revenge is hollow.

bob>We are NOT to seek revenge, vengeance is the Lord's. We are to seek JUSTICE. 

  Those that do find soluce are those who forgive the killer and ask for the person not to be put to death.

bob>No one can forgive the murderer of the murder, the family of the dead person can't forgive the murderer for taking someone else's life. They can forgive him for the pain the murder caused them, but not for the murder. All sins are against God, the murderer can only be forgiven by God. 

  The people involved in the drama (the killer and the killed) become meaning for all involved.  A matter of evil overcomed by good.

bob>No so. The person is dead, he may kill again, it happens all the time. We see gang members laughing about the murders they commit, there is no remorse, in the gang society murder is a good thing some require a murder be committed before they can join the gang. 

The issue about it being in the bible has to be taken with a grain of salt.

bob>I consider the bible as the world of God, the foundation of truth, I know CC do not, this is an example of that. 

  For instance the bible tells the story of the daughter of Jacob who was raped by a rich man.  He fell in love with Jacobs daughter and and he and his parents asked her brothers for forgiveness.  The brothers said that in order for them to forgive the man that He and all of their people would have to be circumsized.  They agreed and were circumsized.  On the 3rd day (when they were their sorest, her brothers attacked the village putting everyone to the sword.  I don't think that you would think that this was the proper action but then nothing was said either for against this action.  It was a matter of history.

bob>The bible shows all sorts of sin done by those who follow God. We all sin. 

Bob>>bob>Oklahoma uses "death" too. I agree the CC needs to be "modernized" by changing it's dogma that are not in the bible. Priest
...[Message truncated]


 

 

 
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