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Hosted by PAULFROMNYS|Malachi 3:16-18/Bible talk

Based on Malachi 3:16-18 I believe the Lord will harken to us as we consider his word together.

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Adam   Bible discussions/all

Started Nov-30 by PAULFROMNYS; 2680 views.
JS5777

From: JS5777

Dec-30

Please see posting #27 and feel free to comment.

 

Shalom,

JS5777

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Dec-30

JS5777 said:

By fulfilling the Great Commission, they not ONLY were giving to people to eat of the Tree of Life (the Word made flesh), they were also fulfilling the Gen 1:28 commandment to be fruitful and multiply, by bringing forth children of God by the preaching of the Word of God, NEITHER of which has anything to do with a sexual act.

Hi James. Very good to connect again brother. It has been too long.

I guess where I am puzzled here is at this point. Without children brought forth through the sexual act, who would there be to preach the gospel to? Since the mystery of godliness is God manifested in the flesh, (1 Timothy 3:16) does there not have to be some flesh involved in God's operation?

I agree with everything you pointed out in post #27 regarding eating. Eating is a sign which signifies God coming into man and mingling with man to be one with man.

I also agree with you that understanding the fall of man is necessary to understand the salvation of man. What are we saved from? This is a good point to ponder.

 I maintain that Adam was sinless, before the fall, but not complete, since he did not eat the tree of life, and therefore never took God in. Instead he took something else in, the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which I believe from the Scriptures is Satan himself. This disqualified him from the tree of life until a Redeemer could come. Instead of God entering man's spirit to mingle and become one with man, Satan entered man's flesh to mingle with and become one with man. 

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Does it not seem that in this verse, and others, sin is personified? 

Matthew 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men.

Does this verse not indicate that at that moment, Satan and Peter were one?

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Dec-30

   Fred said:    What are we saved from? This is a good point to ponder. 

   I think we must be saved from the absolute sovereignty GOD gives us in the affairs of our own souls.  

JS5777

From: JS5777

Dec-30

First of all, the word for "adversary" in the Hebrew language is "sa-tan", therefore, anyone that takes an adversarial attitude toward the Lord Jesus constitutes themselves as being an adversary (Heb. "sa-tan"), this is to say that Peter was speaking carnally and without truly understanding the implications of what he was saying, and from his fallen and carnal perspective he was opposing the Lord Jesus, it is NOT to say that the fallen cherub and Peter were one and the same at that moment.

It is a similar distinction between someone that is demon "possessed" and someone that is being afflicted by a demon, it is possible for a person to be afflicted by a demon and still not "possessed".

To some degree, because of being in fallen flesh, we are all afflicted by demonic attacks to some degree, fortunately the indwelling power of the Life of the Blood that was shed for us on the cross, gives us the power that we need in order to be able to overcome.

Notice that at the moment that the Lord Jesus spoke those words to Peter, the Holy Spirit had not been given yet (John 7:39).

As far as Adam being complete in the pre-fall condition, I maintain that whatever attribute that we apply to Adam (in THAT original condition) we are ALSO applying to God, because Adam was created in the image and likeness of God and there are NO verses in the Bible that say that THAT image and likeness was incomplete in Adam, AND God is NOT incomplete. I do not accept the opinion of any man that carries an implication of applying an attribute to God by attributing (outside of the proper and Biblical time context) some fallen attribute (of incompleteness) to the image and likeness of God, to God, and therefore ALSO to Adam before the fall.

Adam (before the fall) was FAR more complete than many people give him credit for, even so much as typifying Christ in delivering himself to death in order to stand in the breach for his wife, just as the Lord Jesus Christ delivered Himself to death in order to stand in the breach for HIS Wife, the Rev 19:7-9 wife of the Lamb.

AFTER the fall in sin, there was a need for a substitutionary method to bring forth children that was NOT part of God's original MANNER of bringing forth by the creative power of the Word, because when the woman fell, and then in THAT fallen condition she came to her husband, who in that instant was NOT in a fallen condition, he perceived that she had fallen and no longer was able to bring forth by the creative power of the Word, therefore (while still in the original image and likeness of God) Adam made the SAME choice as Christ, to become the intercession for his wife. The substitutionary MANNER of bringing forth children was by the SAME sexual act that was originally ordained by God for the beasts of the field, but THAT MANNER was NOT originally ordained by God for HIS kind to bring forth.

All who have been born (with the ONLY exception of Christ) since THEN, have come into the world by the substitutionary MANNER (of beasts) and NOT by the creative power of the Word. Sex was NOT part of the Gen 1:28 commandment to Adam (male and female).

AFTER God has restored the Elect back to being in fully restored and in immortal/incorruptible bodies, they will STILL continue obeying the Gen 1:28 commandment (because the commandment was given BEFORE the fall, and what was BEFORE the fall, will be after the restoration of our bodies), but in the original MANNER that God intended, by the creative/spoken Word, and EVERY child that will be brought forth in THAT MANNER, will be born perfectly with the same nature that the Lord Jesus Christ was born (without sex) with.

Yes, at the current time there exists people that were born in sin and came into the world speaking lies, and whom need the Good News (Gospel) to be preached to them, so that they might be saved (1 Cor 1:18, 21, 2 Cor 2:15) and for God to have laborers together with Him (Oba 1:21) in His work of salvation.

If the fall in sin had never happened, Adam (both male and female) would STILL (physically) be alive today, as such, just as we were in Christ from the foundation of the world, so ALSO was Adam (both male and female) in Christ and (before the fall) they had no need to eat of the Tree of Life because they were IN He who IS the Tree of Life, just as we were.

But because the fall in sin separated THEM and us from the Tree of Life, AFTER the fall there is the need to come back to He who is the Tree of Life and partake of HIM, in order to live eternally.

God Himself made a sacrifice for Adam (male and female) and clothed them with the skins of THAT sacrifice, and when it is God Himself that makes a sacrifice for someone, it only needs to be done ONCE (Rom 6:10, Heb 7:27, 9:12, 26, 28, 10:10, 1 Pet 3:18).

Shalom,

JS5777

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Dec-31

JS5777 said:

As far as Adam being complete in the pre-fall condition, I maintain that whatever attribute that we apply to Adam (in THAT original condition) we are ALSO applying to God, because Adam was created in the image and likeness of God and there are NO verses in the Bible that say that THAT image and likeness was incomplete in Adam, AND God is NOT incomplete. I do not accept the opinion of any man that carries an implication of applying an attribute to God by attributing (outside of the proper and Biblical time context) some fallen attribute (of incompleteness) to the image and likeness of God, to God, and therefore ALSO to Adam before the fall.

By incomplete we mean not containing God. This is an interpretation of the Scriptures based on the following points.

1. Image in Genesis 1:26 meaning shaped like God inwardly to receive and contain God. Man was created a vessel. (Romans 9:20-21.) A clay vessel may be complete in itself, by not complete as far as it's intended purpose. 

2. Likeness referring outward expression. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Glory is God in His divine attributes living out through human virtues. Jesus was a man, with the human virtues of love, patience, long suffering, etc. but was also full of God and expressed God. Jesus was complete as a vessel by being full of God inwardly and expressing God outwardly. 

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory (outwardly), and the express image of his person (inwardly), and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 

By not eating the tree of life (God in consumable form) Adam did not fulfill God's intended purpose for man and thus came short (not complete) of the glory of God. Thus man's fundamental sin is in not receiving, or eating God. 

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12 Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned —

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Dec-31

JS5777 said:

Adam (before the fall) was FAR more complete than many people give him credit for, even so much as typifying Christ in delivering himself to death in order to stand in the breach for his wife, just as the Lord Jesus Christ delivered Himself to death in order to stand in the breach for HIS Wife, the Rev 19:7-9 wife of the Lamb.

I do not understand this point at all. I agree that Adam was a type of Christ before the fall, and the woman a type of the church. But after the fall Adam both accused his wife and blamed God. That does not appear to be standing in the breach to me. 

Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Dec-31

JS5777 said:

AFTER the fall in sin, there was a need for a substitutionary method to bring forth children that was NOT part of God's original MANNER of bringing forth by the creative power of the Word, because when the woman fell, and then in THAT fallen condition she came to her husband, who in that instant was NOT in a fallen condition, he perceived that she had fallen and no longer was able to bring forth by the creative power of the Word, therefore (while still in the original image and likeness of God) Adam made the SAME choice as Christ, to become the intercession for his wife.

Are there any scriptural references for this?

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Dec-31

JS5777 said:

But because the fall in sin separated THEM and us from the Tree of Life

Fred: Amen to this.

James:  AFTER the fall there is the need to come back to He who is the Tree of Life and partake of HIM, in order to live eternally.

Fred: Here we have something to discuss. "In Him was life", "I have come that you might have life", "I am the life". God is called "the living God." God is life, Christ is life, and the Spirit is the Spirit of life. (Romans 8:2)

To receive eternal life is to receive God.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God is life. To believe is to receive. To receive Him is to receive life. Life is God Himself.

Living eternally is not the point, receiving, being filled with, and living out God in Christ as the Spirit is the point. This is God and this is eternal life.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Nucc

From: Nucc

Dec-31

I agree with you James but please allow me to use fewer words as I see it.

1. The ONE TRUE GOD has a SOVEREIGN PLAN .

2In that plan God allowed the FIRST ADAM with his wife to FREELY CHOOSE to DISOBEY what GOD had COMMANDED  Gen 2:16,17. 

3. In God's  SOVEREIGN PLAN, HE, BEING A JUST GOD, full of MERCY took responsibility for what HE ALLOWED the FIRST ADAM with his wife to do (SIN). 

4. HE in His  SOVEREIGN PLAN,  covered (CLOTHED) the couple's SIN. so in AGREEMENT with (James, JS5777), I don't believe they were REGENERATED (BORN AGAIN), their SIN fell under the MERCIFUL, JUST, & COMPASSIONATE attribute of the ONE TRUE GOD.  

James brought up a good verse.

1 Cor. 15:45

45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

* I think what we must REALLY CONSIDER is that this life we exist in presently is GOD'S SOVEREIGN PLAN, so it's best for ALL of US to GET WITH HIS PLAN and SEEK what HIS PLAN ENTAILS.   

Interesting topic. relaxed

In reply toRe: msg 36
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Dec-31

Nucc said:

I think what we must REALLY CONSIDER is that this life we exist in presently is GOD'S SOVEREIGN PLAN, so it's best for ALL of US to GET WITH HIS PLAN and SEEK what HIS PLAN ENTAILS.    Interesting topic. 

This is a very interesting and important topic. The Bible begins and ends with the tree of life and the river of water of life which flows out of the garden in Genesis 2 is still flowing in Revelation 22. God's sovereign plan no doubt includes this tree and this river and is absolutely related to 1 Corinthians 15:45. The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. Come and drink!!

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him who wills take the water of life freely.

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