PAULFROMNYS

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Based on Malachi 3:16-18 I believe the Lord will harken to us as we consider his word together.

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ROMANS 3:30   Topics/belief

Started Aug-15 by PAULFROMNYS; 2467 views.
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Aug-19

JS5777 said:

To apply the evil attributes of the fallen condition (AFTER the fall) to the first Adam at a time that was BEFORE the fall, is to attribute the evil and fallen attributes to the image and likeness of God, and therefore also to God Himself. THAT is a VERY dangerous thing to do, and could result in blaspheming the Holy Spirit, by attributing evil to the Spirit of Holiness.

I certainly do not believe this nor have I ever heard anyone put this thought forward. If course I am not an expert on heresies, nor do I make a habit of studying all the heretical thoughts in the world, but this is a new one to me. 

Here is what I do believe:

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created -- man in his own image, in the image of God created he -- him; male and female created he -- them.

1. God created man, therefore the man was a creature, not begotten as a son. He was perfect as in sinless, but not complete. He certainly was not complete without the woman, but more importantly he was not complete because he did not eat the tree of life. The book of John says, "in Him was life" (1:4) "I am come that you might have life" (10:10) "eat Me and live" (6:57) "I am the life" (14:6) 'I am the Vine" (15:1) Jesus is the tree of life. Jesus is the manna. Jesus is the bread on the table. The tree of life is at the beginning of the Bible and at the end of the Bible. It is a very big thing to pass over in the beginning.

My understanding is that God created Adam with the capacity to contain Him as a vessel (image), and the capacity to express God in his living (likeness), but Adam failed God and chose knowledge. I have discovered that Bible forums especially appeal to those who have chosen knowledge rather than life. (Not you or Paul of course)

Romans 9:20-23 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

We are created as a vessel to receive (eat) God, contain (be filled with) God, and express (live out) God. 

So you believe that Adam was regenerated and then un-regenerated?

JS5777

From: JS5777

Aug-19

You said "God created man, therefore the man was a creature, not begotten as a son."

However, even though the first Adam was created and then formed, the Bible STILL says the following about the first Adam;

Luke 3:38       Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Therefore there WAS a relationship between the first Adam and God as son with Father.

Just that the first Adam was NOT birthed, and the Second Adam WAS birthed and became the only begotten (birthed) of the Father, and as the firstBORN, He became the inheritor of ALL things, according to the Law of the Birthright.

All of those that are in Him, the Second Adam, are part of the firstborn and also are made to inherit all things together with/in Him.

 

Shalom,

JS5777

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Aug-20

JS5777 said:

However, even though the first Adam was created and then formed, the Bible STILL says the following about the first Adam;

The Bible does make the distinction between created sons, and begotten sons.

Acts 17:28-29 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Because God's offspring here are ignorant and are commanded to repent (v.30) they are not regenerated, yet are referred to as "God's offspring." 

Also, Angels are referred to a sons of God, created, not begotten sons.

Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

As the foundation of the Earth was being laid, before God created man, the sons of God shouted for joy. Angels are ministering spirits, but they do not have a spirit, therefore they cannot be born of God. (John 3:6)

Therefore there is amble Scriptural ground to say that Luke 3:38 is referring to Adam as a created son, not a begotten son. 

By begotten, I do not mean "born of a woman". By begotten I mean what is meant in John 1:13 by "born."

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Scriptures testify that Adam was created by God, was a created son of God, but did not receive the divine life to be born of God, signified by the tree of life. He did not receive God's life. Thusly he died, not physically, but was separated from God and lost the function of his spirit.

JS5777

From: JS5777

Aug-20

OK, this goes back to Genesis Chapter 6, and Hebrews Chapter 1 and if we are willing to state that the author of the Book of Hebrews was mistaken in his statements.

Gen 6:2  That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Were the "sons of God" in this verse angels?

Heb 1:5  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

I am bilingual (English and Spanish), the Spanish version says;

Heb 1:5  Porque ¿a cuál de los ángeles dijo Dios jamás: Mi Hijo eres tú, yo te he engendrado hoy, y otra vez: Yo seré a Él Padre, y Él me será a mí Hijo?

The meaning of the Spanish word "jamás" is NEVER.

Therefore, God NEVER at ANY time made reference to ANY angel with the term "son".

Either the author of the Book of Hebrews was correct or he was mistaken, it CANNOT be BOTH ways, because they are mutually exclusive.

If he was correct, then Gen 6:2 is NOT speaking about angels when it makes the reference to "sons of God".

If he was mistaken, then we start down the long, slippery slope of trying to label just anything that we want to as being an error, and open up the Bible to an entire litany of heretical interpretations at the whim of man.

I spoke about this very detail at some length with men who were doctorates in theology, and NONE of them could give a consistent answer.

If the Gen 6:2 "sons of God" are angels, then you have angels procreating with human beings, which is something that the Law of reproduction that is set forth in Genesis Chapter One prohibits, because EVERYTHING is to bring forth after its own kind.

Therefore an angel that was NOT in a fallen condition WOULD NOT break God's Law by procreating with humans.

Some try to say that fallen angels that would attempt to do such, but fallen angels are demon spirits, and the verse calls them "sons of God", and God is NOT the Father of demons.

Therefore, the term "sons of God" in Gen 6:2 is NOT talking about ANY kind of angel.

However, Luke 3:38 says that Adam was the son of God.

And Gen 5:1 says that it is the "book of the generations of Adam".

There are numerous references that refer to specific men, such as David and being the "father" of other people, even after hundreds of years have passed. Therefore, the use of the term "father" can ALSO mean the "origin" or "fountain" from which a blood-line came, also refer to our "father" Abraham, which is not ONLY the father of Israel and their tribes, but ALSO the "father" of the faithful, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

For this reason, the term "sons of God" in Gen 6:2 is a reference to the descendants of Adam.

Who then were the "daughters of men" in the same verse?

They were the daughters of Cain, who was of that wicked one (1 John 3:12).

It was the mixture of the righteous seed with the wicked seed, and the origin of all of the spiritual strife that has followed.

 

Shalom,

JS5777

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Aug-20

    Fred said:  The next would be to be soulish, or natural, to be confined to the natural, even super-natural realm, like the Catholic who sees an apparition of Jesus in the cloud formation. Like Thomas, the natural man can only believe what his own eyes see and his own ears hear. He has no awareness or consciousness in his spirit to receive the things of the Spirit of God. 

   Paul replies  :)   To respond from our souls is that response proceeding forth from ourselves; good, bad, or indifferent. It is from who we are, which I believe to be the most edifying understanding of a soul. Through the gospel by faith, we are increasingly becoming conformed to the one joined to our spirit, and embraced as LORD.

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Aug-20

   Fred said:  Because faith come by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17)  Jesus, did not trust the kind of "faith" that is generated by supernatural manifestations, which appeal to the natural, or soulish man. 

   Paul replies:  Amen dear brother, anything having any influence contrary to the Spirit of GOD is to be refused, even exposed.  Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Aug-20

     Fred said:  I am enjoying this discussion. Brother James pointed out that genuine faith comes from God and is a gift. This faith comes through our contact with God in the word of God. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word.

     Paul replied:  Me too, it definitely has the impact of: Rom 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.  Paul also said this:  Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Aug-20

    James said:  It is for this very reason that we must be VERY careful to NOT ascribe attributes to the first Adam (before the fall in sin), attributes that ONLY apply to the first Adam AFTER the fall in sin.

   Paul replies:  Would it be good to say the potential of moving contrary to GOD was in the first Adam, and totally annihilated in the second Adam?

JS5777

From: JS5777

Aug-20

The potential of moving contrary to GOD is also totally annihilated in us, as we remain in the second Adam, and He in us.

Some think that it is impossible, but those that do so are at their own peril, and many times they do not even recognize that they are choosing death by choosing unbelief.

It is so comforting to know that "The Believer" is living within us.

 

Shalom,

JS5777

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Aug-20

JS5777 said:

OK, this goes back to Genesis Chapter 6, and Hebrews Chapter 1 and if we are willing to state that the author of the Book of Hebrews was mistaken in his statements.

Hebrews 1:5 is a quote from Psalm 2:7 and 2 Samuel 7:14. These are two of the main verses Paul uses to preach the gospel. (see Acts 13:16-41)

What Hebrews 1:5 does say:

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

According to Paul's interpretation in Acts 13:33, "Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee" is spoken to Jesus in resurrection. Jesus was begotten of God as the Firstborn son on the day He was raised from the dead. 

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

At no time has God ever said to an angel, "I have begotten thee." Angels cannot be begotten of God. Therefore, angels worship the resurrected Jesus, He is greater than the angels. They are God's creatures, but Jesus is God's firstborn Son. To Jesus He is His Father. To angels, He is their creator.

What Hebrews 1:5 does not say:

Nowhere in the Bible are angels ever call sons of God. It does not say that. 

Again, I think I showed adequately that the Scriptures make the distinction between created sons, which do not have the Father's life and nature, and begotten sons, who do have the Father's life and nature. Adam was created by God as a created son. Had he eaten, received life, the divine uncreated life of God, signified by the tree of life, he would have been begotten of God, i.e. regenerated in his spirit.

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