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Based on Malachi 3:16-18 I believe the Lord will harken to us as we consider his word together.

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The Believers Relationship with the Law of God   Bible discussions/all

Started 9/22/22 by Fred (fnorthrup); 828 views.
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/26/22

JS5777 said:

If you will notice that in every posting that I have made about the Law of God, I am very careful to state, without fail, that the fulfillment of the Law of God IS NOT by our own works WITHOUT HIM, and that it is ONLY possible by and through the power of His Life dwelling within us to fulfill His own obedience through us.

I have noticed this brother. 

What we are contending for here is the faith, as revealed in the Holy Scriptures. What is commonly thought, by Christians everywhere, is that we are saved by grace through faith, but then we are perfected by Jesus helping us keep the law. There is an entire denomination with maybe millions of adherents, who has codified this doctrine and made it the foundation of their faith, the Seventh Day Adventists.

According to Paul, who was saved out from under the law (Galatians 2:19), we received the Spirit through the hearing of faith, we are being perfected through the hearing of faith, and we are supplied with the Spirit through the hearing of faith. Our full salvation has literally nothing to do with the works of law.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now being perfected by the flesh (works of law)?

3:5 He therefore that bountifully supplies to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The hearing of faith is through hearing the word of God.

If you ask these dear ones who have placed themselves under the law, do you know that you have a spirit? They will answer, no. Do you know that God is Spirit? No. Do you know that the Spirit Himself is with our spirit, and even mingled with our spirit? No. 

According to the plain words in Romans 7, which I have cited over and over, either in part or in whole, to make up our good mind to keep the law is to do it without Christ, because Christ is in our spirit. To bring ourselves under the law is to be in the flesh and to walk according to the flesh. Jesus, who is in our spirit, cannot help us if we do not substantiate, experience, and walk according to the Spirit with our spirit.

Here are the main points as I understand them:

1. The person that was held in slavery under the law was crucified with Christ. It is not that the law died, but we who were under law died.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2. This is the basis to say that we are not under law, because we died.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

3. If we no longer live, but Christ lives in us (Galatians 2:20) then the law no longer has dominion over us.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

3. We are now like a widow, free to marry another, to be joined to another, to Christ, who is the Spirit with our spirit.

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We can be either people in the flesh trying to keep the law (with Jesus' help) or people in the Spirit living Christ, not both. If we could make up our good mind and Jesus would help be good law keepers then there would have been no need for Romans chapter 7. 

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/26/22

JS5777 said:

Who was the author of the Torah, God or Moses?

I would answer, "yes."

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/26/22

JS5777 said:

But the Law of God describes how His character behaves, and if THAT is eliminated... then the result is that we can behave in just any way that the flesh in its fallen condition imagines to do, and STILL claim salvation.

The Law of God has not been eliminated. The person that was under the law was crucified with Christ. Now, in us, Christ has replaced the law.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I am dead to the law...Christ lives in me...if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

JS5777

From: JS5777

9/26/22

I would take that response as meaning that you think that BOTH God AND Moses authored the Torah.

How do you determine which parts of the Torah were authored by God and which parts were authored by Moses?

 

Shalom,

JS5777

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

9/26/22

      

JS5777 said:

Who was the author of the Torah, God or Moses?

I would answer, "yes." 

   Paul:  LOL.   

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/26/22

JS5777 said:

I would take that response as meaning that you think that BOTH God AND Moses authored the Torah.

I'm not trying to be cute brother.

All Scripture is God -breathed and therefore profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. Therefore the Torah is of God and out of God.

The man who produced the first 5 books of the Bible and whose name is on them is Moses. Therefore they are called by Luke, "Moses." 

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and -- all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

I think we are still discussing what Paul meant by "the law?" Because he uses "the law" and "the commandment" interchangeably in Romans 7, I do believe that is what he meant: the commandments, with the attending ordinances and statutes. 

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

What do you think Paul meant by "all the law"

v. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Always this is presented as mutually exclusive. If we are under the law, we are in the flesh. If we walk by the Spirit, we are not under the law. There is no such thing in the Bible as Jesus helping us keep the law.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended (sum up, gather into one) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

What do you think Paul means by "and if there be any other commandment?" I believe, based on so many verses, that he was definitely talking about the commandments, all of them.

JS5777

From: JS5777

9/26/22

Fred said: "I'm not trying to be cute brother."

I am not trying to be cute either, I had a very specific reason, which DOES relate to the topic of this thread, and would appreciate a direct answer, instead of an avoidance of the question.

How do you determine the difference between the portions of the Torah that were authored by God, and those portions which were authored by Moses?

 

Shalom,

JS5777

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/26/22

JS5777 said:

How do you determine the difference between the portions of the Torah that were authored by God, and those portions which were authored by Moses?

I am not avoiding your question at all. I am not sure what you are asking. According to the Scriptures " God spoke to the fathers by the prophets." Hebrews 1:1-2

If you asked me, who spoke, God or the prophets? I would say "God spoke to the fathers by the prophets." God's speaking was in the prophets speaking and the prophets speaking was God's speaking. The answer would be "yes."

But your question is "who authored." I'm not even sure what you mean. I guess one answer is that the commandments were written by the finger of God in a stone, then He authored that part. Since Moses presumably wrote the first 5 books, excluding what God wrote with His finger, then Moses wrote that part.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/26/22

JS5777 said:

Sadly, there are some people that think that ANY fulfilling of ANY part of the Law of God has been completely eliminated. But the Law of God describes how His character behaves, and if THAT is eliminated... then the result is that we can behave in just any way that the flesh in its fallen condition imagines to do, and STILL claim salvation.

I do not think Paul was one of those people, and neither am I. Paul makes abundantly clear that there is nothing wrong with the law, and the law has not gone anywhere. He also makes abundantly clear that we are in no way under the law. 

Because we are begotten of God to be sons of God, and have the divine nature, the law no longer relates to us. However, this does not mean that there is not a fulfillment of the righteous requirement of the law. We who walk by the Spirit do fulfill the requirement of the law of God.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

JS5777

From: JS5777

9/26/22

Are you saying that the pneuma/ruach/Spirit was merged with the spirit of the prophets?

Or is it more accurate to say that the Word was dictated to the prophets, whom acted more as scribes, and that there was NO mixture of the fallen spirit of man into the writing of the Word of God?

This is an important detail to be resolved.

 

Shalom,

JS5777

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