Based on Malachi 3:16-18 I believe the Lord will harken to us as we consider his word together.
Latest Nov-7 by PAULFROMNYS
Latest Jan-28 by Fred (fnorthrup)
Latest Jan-28 by Fred (fnorthrup)
Latest Jan-9 by Fred (fnorthrup)
Latest Jan-8 by Fred (fnorthrup)
Latest Jan-8 by Fred (fnorthrup)
Latest Jan-8 by Fred (fnorthrup)
I have it on my heart, beloved, that these days before us we shall in the will of God, be occupied with "That which is born of the Spirit," or "The New Creation in Christ Jesus"; and this morning, for a little while, we want to set the object in its place, or in His place, and see exactly what it is toward which the Lord is moving; what we might call the pattern in the heavens.
So truly, the Lord Jesus is the pattern and the reality toward which God is working; and we want now, immediately, to get that Object into its, or His place, because until that is so we shall be held to something less; we shall have an inadequate objective and dynamic for our lives here on earth. You recognise how true that was in the case of the Apostle himself. You remember that in Acts 9 he suddenly was met on the Damascus Road by the Lord in Glory. To his own consternation and amazement he discovered that that light above the brightness of the sun was Jesus of Nazareth, now exalted to the Right Hand of the Majesty on high, now glorified. That was Paul's first view of the Lord Jesus so far as we know. It was Christ in the glory. Philippians 3 is the practical consequence of that. That is "Things which were gain to me those I counted loss, yea, and I do count them but stuff to be flung to the dogs, that I might be found in Him." Tremendous statements - to gain Christ. The Lord Jesus is given to the sinner on the ground of repentance and faith; given, but Paul had come to a position where he saw that that which had been given had now got to be gained. Two realms of things, equally true. There was a gain of Christ far beyond the gift of Christ. The gift of Christ unto salvation; the gain of Christ unto glorification in the fullest Witness - That which is born of the Spirit. Philippians 3 is the practical outworking of Acts 9.
Paul said: “So truly, the Lord Jesus is the pattern and the reality toward which God is working; and we want now, immediately, to get that Object into its, or His place, because until that is so we shall be held to something less; we shall have an inadequate objective and dynamic for our lives here on earth.”
Truly, the Lord Jesus IS the pattern and the reality toward which God is working.
But the pattern that was shown to Moses was of a different thing, as is shown below.
About the vail of separation and what the pattern of the Tabernacle/Temple (that was shown to Moses) symbolized;
Please refer to; http://forums.delphiforums.com/malachi31618/messages/?msg=5012.118
From posting # 118
The cherubim that was upon the vail was the dragon cherub!
It was upon the vail that separated between the Holy Place (mind) and the Holy of Holies (heart).
2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Cor 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2 Cor 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
The Lord Jesus NEVER had that vail of separation (with the fallen cherub, that covereth) between His mind and His heart. It is for this reason that when our hearts turn to the Lord, He can remove that vail of separation from between our minds and our hearts, so that the divine light of Him coming into our hearts can ALSO illuminate our minds.
Because THAT pattern DID have the vail that separates between the Holy Place (mind) and the Holy of Holies (heart), and it is the Lord that removes the vail, we can now understand that the pattern of the Tabernacle/Temple was symbolic of man in his fallen condition (Eph 3:16), and in need of God to set the Tabernacle/Temple in order.
Exo 29:43 And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory.
It is the glory of God as it fills the house (all three porches) that sanctifies the house (that we are) and puts it into His divine order.
And through all of this, we have access to pass the guards, and come back to the Tree of Life, and even now are being made to eat of His fruit, because the vail of separation has been removed, and we have access by the blood of our atonement working through the incense of humility, to come into His (THE Tree of Life) presence and to be filled with His glory.
By the removal of the vail of separation, we are being conformed anew to the image and likeness of He who NEVER had that vail of the fallen cherubim between His mind and His heart.
The same detail about the vail is also shown in postings;
Just to prevent any misunderstanding about the two different patterns, the pattern of THE Temple in heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the pattern that was shown to Moses and from which the Tabernacle/Temple were made, which had the vail that was to eventually be removed, and WAS removed.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mark 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
The Lord Jesus NEVER had THAT veil of separation where the fallen cherub was, between His mind and His heart, and the very moment in which our atonement was made, the symbol of THAT veil was was torn, showing the reality of the 2 Cor 3:14-16 vail being removed, for the purpose of beginning the work of conforming us to HIM.
Not saying that you (Paul) have not recognized the difference, but for the benefit of other readers.
You make good points, but I have come to believe that the veil that was torn was the veil between the outer court and the Holy Place, showing the progression into the Temple from the flesh into the Spirit realm thru the work of Messiah. That initiated the phase of the ministry of the Holy Spirit as shown in the first section of Revelation.
The next "unveiling" would be the one at the end of Days when we will be reunited in the Soul arwa of the Holy of Holies, which is moving to the time of the complete openess of the Temple and on the way towards there being no Temple because the Father and Son will be the completeness of the journey.
The pattern of Creation becoming rhe fullness of cometion of fellowship.
The veil/vail that was torn/rent is clearly identified in scripture as the inner/second veil, veil of covering/separation which was between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies.
This is identified not only in the gospels when the veil of the temple was rent in two when Christ died on the cross, but also in 2 Cor 3:14-16, and in 2 Cor 3:14:-16 it is also clearly identified as being between the mind and the heart.
The way that you are speaking, would place the inner/second veil as being between the Outer Court and the Holy Place, and THAT is NOT where the veil was in the Tabernacle/Temple.
There WAS a tearing of the veil of the flesh of Christ (Heb 10:20) but the tearing of THAT veil was done through the scourging and the crucifixion, and is entirely distinct from the veil being rent in two and removed, in the Temple (as found in Mat 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45) and in 2 Cor 3:14-16, otherwise, you would have us being physically scourged when our hearts turn to Christ, which DOES NOT happen (for most people, only in cases of physical persecution).
So while there WAS a tearing of the veil of His flesh (Heb 10:20), which was done through the scourging, crown of thorns, spear through the side and the nails of the crucifixion, THAT is different from and distinct from the rending of the veil of the Temple between the Holy Place (mind) and the Holy of Holies (heart, 2 Cor 3:14-16), which is done without hands and is a parallel of the circumcision of Christ (Rom 15:8, Phlp 3:3, Col 2:11).
The inner veil is also referred to in the New Testament as the second veil, also in the Old Testament as the vail of covering/separation.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
It is explicitly implied that if there is a second veil, then there must also be a first veil, and therefore the scriptures are talking about TWO separate and distinct veils (Heb 10:20 as contrasted with Heb 9:4 and 2 Cor 3:14-16).
In order to get the picture correct, we MUST correctly discern which of the two veils is being spoken about in each of the different places where the word "veil" is used in the New Testament and what is being referred to in the Old Testament.
And it must be done in a manner that makes a consistent narrative between BOTH the Old Testament and the New Testament.
In other words, no contradictions, when the entirety is applied to the temples of our bodies (1 Cor 3:16, 6:19).
James: Not saying that you (Paul) have not recognized the difference, but for the benefit of other readers.
Paul: You are aware that in this section I am copying and pasting segments from the works of T. Austin Sparks, correct? I agree with your comments, and would add that the necessity of the joining of the Lord Jesus Christ to our spirits is what is highlighted. The pattern allowed for the vail, the purpose eliminated it.
I think that I am correct in surmising that the purpose that you have in posting extracts from T. Austin Sparks is not ONLY to solicit commentary, but to ALSO express some degree of agreement with what is being said in those extracts.
It is for THAT reason that I clarified that I was "not saying that you (Paul) have not recognized the difference, but for the benefit of other readers", because of an implied, at least partial agreement, with what you initially posted.
Or am I mistaken?
You are correct. I embrace T. Austin as a genuine teacher of high order in Christ. Many good realities of Malachi 3:16-18 have been sparked between me and Fred by his insights((yielding)) to our Lord. When this forum was for all purposes dead, I continued posting his offerings for part of my daily devotions.
I dont see clearly the conclusion you have drawn, perhaps more explanation would help if you are so inclined.
Have you ever read a transliteration from Greek to English such as provided by the scripture4all website?
It seems to make Hebrews 10.19,20 clearer to me that it is talking about the entrance to the Holy Places and the veil of the flesh.
Evidently there were three veils in the Temple: the entrace to the court, the one to the Holy Places and and subsequentially the one into the Holy of Holies.
Man was created with the gathering of the flesh, and the breath of the Spirit which combined to make a living soul, following the existing Holy design.
The Flesh of the Holy One underwent sacrifice upon the altar in the courtyard of the Flesh. The next step in the pattern is cleansing and then entering into the Holy Place thru the second veil.
The Spirit shown thru Moses face thru the veil that was outside the Holy habitations in his body.
After the Holy Sacrifice and the cleansing, the next step was thru the veil that leads to the Holy Places.
As shown in the first chapters of Revelation, the promised ministry of the Holy Spirit usward is shown vividly, outlining the Holy articles of furnishings found there.
That was the next step and where we are today. I would like to note that the Holy Priest described there is described in terms assigned to BOTH Yeshua and the Holy Spirit. One being with both descriptions.
Further along there are actions of moving into the depths of the Temple until final the declaration that the Temple is the Father and Son.
In the beginning Elohim created a finite time system out of everlasting infinity and occupied it with the Heavens and the earth. The Holy Spirit took up residence and ministry in the surrounding Heavens and the Son, the Light, shone into the darkness called earth.
Thus the first showing of the Temple design guiding the progression of this limit of time.