General -  AGNOSTICISM atheism/belief/knowlege (939 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: Dotsman12/20/21 12:12 PM 
To: NETIZEN_J  (11 of 109) 
 14717.11 in reply to 14717.9 

"Weasel word."  Exactly.

 
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From: ACEofALLaces12/20/21 5:02 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (12 of 109) 
 14717.12 in reply to 14717.5 

JohnDoe947 said...

By claiming agnosticism they think they are fooling their theist adversaries. They might be. They might not be. They are definitely fooling themselves.

You, if I read you correctly JD, do not accept the concept of "maybe", or there "MIGHT be", etc etc as being valid, which are all based upon the more conventional, and IMHO more direct way of simply declaring "I DON'T KNOW", which is the generally accepted useage of being agnostic.

Could it be that one cannot really BE "agnostic" as it infers don't really know ANYTHING for sure.   But can be unsure about some particular or specific THING, therefore they can claim to be "agnostic" about...whatever is being discussed.  Can you accept or buy into THAT sort of reasoning?

And yes, I DO have to agree that agnostic is most definitely a "weasel-word".

  • Edited December 20, 2021 5:06 pm  by  ACEofALLaces
 

 
From: NETIZEN_J12/21/21 1:48 AM 
To: ACEofALLaces  (13 of 109) 
 14717.13 in reply to 14717.12 

If your answer to the question 'do you believe that at least one deity exists' is anything other than 'yes', then you're not-a-theist, and therefor an atheist.  

Even, or maybe especially, if that answer is 'I have no idea whether or not deities exist'.

People tend to either over-simplify or over-complicate things needlessly.  It's a binary set - you're either a theist or an atheist.  Even people who believe in spirits and reincarnation and astral traveling and all that sort of stuff are 'atheists' if their beliefs do not include a deity per se.  There are lots of kinds of theists - monotheists, polytheists - even pantheists.  There are theists who believe that there's at least one goddess, rather than, or in addition to, at least one god.  Similarly there are many kinds of atheists, from 'spiritual but not religious' to crystal-pyramid-chakra-aligners to Ouija-board mediums to faith-based atheists and everything in between.  Some theists don't like being lumped in with Muslims.  Some atheists don't like being lumped in with certain Scientologists and Buddhists - each of whom has varying views on 'God' depending on who you ask.

Both are really 'big tents' with wide ranges of viewpoints and beliefs on either 'side'.

N_J

  • Edited December 21, 2021 1:50 am  by  NETIZEN_J
 

 
From: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon12/21/21 7:23 AM 
To: ACEofALLaces  (14 of 109) 
 14717.14 in reply to 14717.12 

ACEofALLaces said...

You, if I read you correctly JD, do not accept the concept of "maybe", or there "MIGHT be", etc etc as being valid, which are all based upon the more conventional, and IMHO more direct way of simply declaring "I DON'T KNOW", which is the generally accepted useage of being agnostic.

If one doesn't know whether or not there is a god one does not believe in a god. That is the state of being an atheist.

"Atheist" speaks to belief, not knowledge. I don't know if there is some god somewhere doing who the hell knows what. I don't know about lots of things butt I have no reason to run around calling myself agnostic because I don't know a billion or so trivial things. So you (not you) don't know whether or not there is a god? So what? Nobody does. All religionists have is "a book says a thing" and "my holy man said...", all hearsay. They really don't know anything about the god they've been taught to believe in. Agnosticism is a stupid, useless concept.

 
 
 
 
JD

I would rather live a hard reality than a happy fantasy.

 

 
From: Ishmael11212/21/21 2:27 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (15 of 109) 
 14717.15 in reply to 14717.5 

JohnDoe947 said...

By claiming agnosticism they think they are fooling their theist adversaries. They might be. They might not be. They are definitely fooling themselves.

Is it your belief that every single person who claims to be agnostic is being dishonest in order to "fool" theists?  That in this wide world not one individual who claims to be agnostic is honest?   That each and every agnostic only tries to deceive others and likely deceives himself?

 

 
From: Ishmael11212/21/21 2:30 PM 
To: Dotsman  (16 of 109) 
 14717.16 in reply to 14717.7 

Dotsman said...

I think a lot of people like to go by the term agnostic because they think that, to theists, this sounds more open-minded than atheist.

I am a theist.  I do not believe and would never suggest that atheists are necessarily closed minded.  My experience is the opposite; some of the most open minded people I have ever met are atheists.  

 

 

 
From: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon12/21/21 2:32 PM 
To: Ishmael112  (17 of 109) 
 14717.17 in reply to 14717.15 

Ishmael112 said...

Is it your belief that every single person who claims to be agnostic is being dishonest in order to "fool" theists?  That in this wide world not one individual who claims to be agnostic is honest?   That each and every agnostic only tries to deceive others and likely deceives himself?

I couldn't possibly know that but those "agnostics" I've encountered on line and IRL seem to fit my model. Whether they are aware of their attempted deception or not.

Every agnostic is an atheist. Some may not be aware of this simple fact. Many are and are loathe to admit it.

 
 
 
 
JD

I would rather live a hard reality than a happy fantasy.

 

 
From: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon12/21/21 2:35 PM 
To: Ishmael112  (18 of 109) 
 14717.18 in reply to 14717.16 

Ishmael112 said...

I am a theist.  I do not believe and would never suggest that atheists are necessarily closed minded.  My experience is the opposite; some of the most open minded people I have ever met are atheists.  

There are no two identical theists. Each one has his/her own ideas concerning just about everything.

Certainly you are not going to argue here that there are theists who consider atheism a closed-minded stance.

 
 
 
 
JD

I would rather live a hard reality than a happy fantasy.

 

 
From: Ishmael11212/21/21 4:54 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (19 of 109) 
 14717.19 in reply to 14717.18 

You're right.  In my experience atheists are open minded.  No doubt there are some exceptions but the vast majority of atheists I have encountered are open minded and genuinely curious people.  

 

 
From: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon12/21/21 4:57 PM 
To: Ishmael112  (20 of 109) 
 14717.20 in reply to 14717.19 

Ishmael112 said...

You're right.  In my experience atheists are open minded.  No doubt there are some exceptions but the vast majority of atheists I have encountered are open minded and genuinely curious people.  

But we weren't talking about you.

 
 
 
 
JD

I would rather live a hard reality than a happy fantasy.

 

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