General -  AGNOSTICISM atheism/belief/knowlege (941 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
From: YoungGandalf DelphiPlus Member Icon12/29/21 12:54 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (81 of 109) 
 14717.81 in reply to 14717.80 

The problem is complex.

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From: Ishmael11212/29/21 1:35 PM 
To: YoungGandalf DelphiPlus Member Icon  (82 of 109) 
 14717.82 in reply to 14717.68 

My Greek philosophy teacher would disagree with you.  We know Socrates primarily through The Republic written by Plato, one of his students.  So we have a direct eye witness account of Socrates' ideas.  

Socrates has left us "the theory of ideas," the belief that true reality is the ideal reality and that physical objects are only shadows of the true reality.   That is what his "Parable of the Cave" is all about.  Basic to that theory is that only the best are fit to govern us which is why they occupy the most important positions in the society.  And the best are to be governed by the Philosopher King who should be Socrates.  This is determined by fate and nothing anyone can say or do makes a difference.  For Socrates his ideas of justice were the most important things there were and he spent many years concerned with them.

Socrates did physically live in Athens but to him Athenian Democracy was the worst form of society because it was governed by plebians, lower class people who cared only about their appetites for more money, more status and all of the luxury they could afford.  

And the example Socrates left supports this position.  He neglected his farm and his own income despite the efforts of his wife to have him to attend to supporting his family.  He preferred to live in his own ideal world conversing with his students.  Today there are still followers of Socrates, intelligent people who have been seduced by those ideas.  Some people have the means to live that fantasy life but many others of us do not.  

  • Edited December 29, 2021 1:47 pm  by  Ishmael112

From: Ishmael11212/29/21 2:00 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (83 of 109) 
 14717.83 in reply to 14717.69 

JohnDoe947 said...

School doesn't make anybody smart. Does nothing to curb gullibility either. I know some well educated idiots.

There is such a thing as native intelligence.  But without school few of us would be able to read, write or even add and subtract.  It is in school where most of us acquire these skills.  

You call people who do not share your experiences "well educated idiots."  I doubt even you believe that if you really think about it.   And you have never shown a single other person who believes it. 


From: Ishmael11212/29/21 2:05 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (84 of 109) 
 14717.84 in reply to 14717.70 

You argue agnosticism is a "way of thinking."  Yet you have argued that people who claim to be agnostics are really not because there is no such thing as agnosticism.  That is a contradiction.  


From: Ishmael11212/29/21 2:07 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (85 of 109) 
 14717.85 in reply to 14717.72 

Is there any possible way to discuss an issue with you without being accused of shameful behavior?


From: VERNADEE12/29/21 2:10 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (86 of 109) 
 14717.86 in reply to 14717.69 


re>>well educated idiots>>

I agree.  Some are surprisingly helpless in RL.  Many are so educated and out of touch with the general population that if you asked them to make you coffee , they wouldn't have a clue as to where to start.  

I rather like the smart people here.  They seem to know what is what.


PS  Peanut's bite is closing and she seems to feel better.  ....Now if she morphs into a were cat we will have fresh problems..<G> but I doubt that is likely.


From: VERNADEE12/29/21 2:12 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (87 of 109) 
 14717.87 in reply to 14717.72 


Re>>shame on you>>

I kind of doubt that any long term husband would make that mistake.  <GG>  more than once <GG>

Anna  who is a long term wife


From: Ishmael11212/29/21 2:13 PM 
To: JohnDoe947 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (88 of 109) 
 14717.88 in reply to 14717.73 

I have heard that Diana, Princess of Wales was not particularly intelligent.  She constructed a world which included riding in a car driven a a drunk driver.  She came to a sad end.  Other unintelligent people make similar mistakes. 


From: YoungGandalf DelphiPlus Member Icon12/29/21 2:29 PM 
To: Ishmael112  (89 of 109) 
 14717.89 in reply to 14717.82 

The other possibility is that Socrates in the Platoan texts is a literal device based on a supposed real man. Socrates is a character in most of Plato’s writing.


  • Edited December 29, 2021 2:30 pm  by  YoungGandalf

From: Ishmael11212/29/21 4:32 PM 
To: YoungGandalf DelphiPlus Member Icon  (90 of 109) 
 14717.90 in reply to 14717.89 

Do you know if there is any support for the idea that Plato uses Socrates as a literary device?  Back in college my teacher accepted the idea that Socrates was one single individual and I have never before heard that questioned.  


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