Faith Issues,News & Religions -  Die and go right to Heaven or sleep? (620 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member IconOct-12 5:09 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (41 of 54) 
 39847.41 in reply to 39847.38 

bob>I'm not sure about that and it's not a salvational issue, so I haven't spent much time on it. Some religions think we lay in death sleep, some right to heaven, what do you think?

Ginger>2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

 

 

     

Psalm119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path"

 
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From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostOct-13 11:22 AM 
To: Norrie (NORRIEJ)  (42 of 54) 
 39847.42 in reply to 39847.39 

He may have lived, I ain't studying him.  I'm studying the Bible.

bob>Darby is the preachers who started the "pre" you must love him.


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostOct-13 11:26 AM 
To: RickT1962 (sthnreb1)  (43 of 54) 
 39847.43 in reply to 39847.40 

bob>I'm not sure about that and it's not a salvational issue, so I haven't spent much time on it. Some religions think we lay in death sleep, some right to heaven, what do you think?

I believe what the Bible says and teaches.  In Eden, God told Adam and Eve they would die if they ate from one tree.  Satan said they would not but be like God, knowing right and wrong. 

bob>It was speaking of their physical bodies dying, as you know, their bodies were not designed to perish, but sin in the flesh brought death to the flesh, not to the spririt, however, revelations speaks of the second death, which is the death of the spirit.

They died.  No where does it say they went to heaven or hell.  Rom. 5:12, 17, 19: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and DEATH through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. Gen. 3:19: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to DUST YOU WILL RETURN.”
Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”  Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”  Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”  Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”
Isa. 26:14: “They are dead; they will not live. Impotent in death, they will not rise up.”  To me, that is enough Biblical proof to show the dead are just that, dead.  Otherwise it would invalidate a Resurrection since if you were in heaven, you would have already been judged.  There are verses concerning the 144,000 who will serve as kings and priest with Christ in the 1000 year reign and judge.  (They were chosen because they know what being human was and it's pitfalls.)  They do die and their spirit goes immediately to heaven.  Many confuse those with mankind in general in different verses.  You have to consider who is being spoken to also.  The choice is to believe God or Satan.

bob>Their bodies died and of course their bodies didn't go to heaven, we both have not doubt that they will be in heaven if they are not there now in spirit.


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostOct-13 11:26 AM 
To: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (44 of 54) 
 39847.44 in reply to 39847.41 

bob>I'm not sure about that and it's not a salvational issue, so I haven't spent much time on it. Some religions think we lay in death sleep, some right to heaven, what do you think?

Ginger>2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

bob>Thanks Ginger, that passage deals directly with the issue!


 

 

 
From: RickT1962 (sthnreb1)Oct-13 12:17 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (45 of 54) 
 39847.45 in reply to 39847.43 

One thing I notice is the majority of people refer to Revelation as Revelations.  It is not plural or have an s at the end.  You may want to make a note of it for future references to Revelation.  I believe since there is not thought or knowledge when one dies, it is the same as before you were born.  Satan wants people to believe otherwise by saying they don't really die but their spirit lives on.  Their spirit is their knowledge and all they know.  It goes back to God to retain for a Resurrection.  It is nothing tangible or alive.  The Bible states you go back to dust, including the spirit.  A person is a soul.  Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (RS, NE, KJ, and Dy all render the Hebrew word ne'phesh in this verse as “soul,” thus saying that it is the soul that dies. Some translations that render ne'phesh as “soul” in other passages use the expression “the man” or “the one” in this verse. So, the ne'phesh, the soul, is the person, not an immaterial part of him that survives when his body dies.) 
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ru'ach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that ru'ach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.)
Eccl. 3:19-21: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?” (Because of the inheritance of sin and death from Adam, humans all die and return to the dust, as animals do. But does each human have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; verse 19 answers that humans and beasts “all have but one spirit.” Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in verse 21 regarding the spirit. But God’s Word answers that there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die. However, because of God’s merciful provision through Christ, the prospect of living forever has been opened up to humans who exercise faith, but not to animals. For many of mankind, that will be made possible by resurrection, when active life-force from God will invigorate them again.)
Luke 23:46: “Jesus called with a loud voice and said: ‘Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit [Greek, pneu'ma'].’ When he had said this, he expired.” (Notice that Jesus expired. When his spirit went out he was not on his way to heaven. Not until the third day from this was Jesus resurrected from the dead. Then, as Acts 1:3, 9 shows, it was 40 more days before he ascended to heaven. So, what is the meaning of what Jesus said at the time of his death? He was saying that he knew that, when he died, his future life prospects rested entirely with God.  The one God, the Father.  while among them on his last night of life as a human, he reported to his Father that he had ‘finished the work on earth’ assigned to him and prayed, saying: “Glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was,” saying also, “I am coming to you.” (Joh 17:4, 5, 11) When arrested, he gave similar indication before the Sanhedrin. (Mt 26:64) After his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to MY FATHER  and YOUR FATHER  and to MY GOD and YOUR GOD.’” (Joh 20:17) 

 

 

 

 
From: Norrie (NORRIEJ)Oct-13 2:06 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (46 of 54) 
 39847.46 in reply to 39847.42 

On this subject, this is the last I'm going to respond to one of your stupid remarks.  Jesus and Paul were pre and that was a long time before any of those people you mention.

****************

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elrBnIh1JKU&t=85s

How A \u201CTwo Kingdoms\u201D Mindset Is Escorting America To Hell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61tFJsVsPo4&list=PLU16omkJffq4auEcsaU1GdAL0TNyUndS6  Constitution seminar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2POwIwA8E  Geneology of the Constitution

 http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0003/0003_01.asp

Dear politically correct, godless, liberals who are genuinely offended at the sight of the Christ child in a manger, I have GREAT news for you! The next time you see Him, he won't be in a manger! Sadly, if you can't handle His first appearance, you're REALLY not going to like His second appearance.

Stop, Drop, and Roll won't work in Hell.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. Benjamin Franklin
Why do black Democratic congresspersons seem so unhappy with record low black unemployment? Because it might mean unemployment for them. And their lives as political parasites will have been meaningless wastes.
 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostOct-14 10:07 AM 
To: RickT1962 (sthnreb1)  (47 of 54) 
 39847.47 in reply to 39847.45 

One thing I notice is the majority of people refer to Revelation as Revelations.  It is not plural or have an s at the end.  You may want to make a note of it for future references to Revelation. 

bob>Hi, I didn't know that was an issue. I have thought about that before and came to the conclusion there is a series of revelations so that's why it's called that. Does it matter?

I believe since there is not thought or knowledge when one dies, it is the same as before you were born. 

bob>How do we know that?

Satan wants people to believe otherwise by saying they don't really die but their spirit lives on.  Their spirit is their knowledge and all they know. 

bob>Interesting.

It goes back to God to retain for a Resurrection.  It is nothing tangible or alive.  The Bible states you go back to dust, including the spirit. 

bob>The spirit wasn't or isn't dust.

A person is a soul.  Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (RS, NE, KJ,

bob>I think you're saying a "spirit" is the personality and the soul is the living being of a person. I don't know if that was logical, what is your definition?

and Dy all render the Hebrew word ne'phesh in this verse as “soul,” thus saying that it is the soul that dies. Some translations that render ne'phesh as “soul” in other passages use the expression “the man” or “the one” in this verse. So, the ne'phesh, the soul, is the person, not an immaterial part of him that survives when his body dies.) 

bob>How we define the "spirit/soul" is important here. I have seen them used either way.


Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ru'ach. Some translators render it “breath.”

bob>After God formed Adam, God breathed life into him, which would mean before that time Adam was an animal type being without a spirit, right?

When that ru'ach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.)

bob>In death sleep, the person/soul/spirit is also asleep, I never thought of it as loosing it's memory or personality.


Eccl. 3:19-21: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?” (Because of the inheritance of sin and death from Adam, humans all die and return to the dust, as animals do. But does each human have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; verse 19 answers that humans and beasts “all have but one spirit.” Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in verse 21 regarding the spirit. But God’s Word answers that there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die. However, because of God’s merciful provision through Christ, the prospect of living forever has been opened up to humans who exercise faith, but not to animals. For many of mankind, that will be made possible by resurrection, when active life-force from God will invigorate them again.)
Luke 23:46: “Jesus called with a loud voice and said: ‘Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit [Greek, pneu'ma'].’ When he had said this, he expired.” (Notice that Jesus expired. When his spirit went out he was not on his way to heaven. Not until the third day from this was Jesus resurrected from the dead. Then, as Acts 1:3, 9 shows, it was 40 more days before he ascended to heaven. So, what is the meaning of what Jesus said at the time of his death? He was saying that he knew that, when he died, his future life prospects rested entirely with God.  The one God, the Father.  while among them on his last night of life as a human, he reported to his Father that he had ‘finished the work on earth’ assigned to him and prayed, saying: “Glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was,” saying also, “I am coming to you.” (Joh 17:4, 5, 11) When arrested, he gave similar indication before the Sanhedrin. (Mt 26:64) After his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to MY FATHER  and YOUR FATHER  and to MY GOD and YOUR GOD.’” (Joh 20:17) 

bob>Great post, but I have to clear things up. The first death is the death of the physical body, I guess you're saying the "soul" is that, right? The second death is the death of the spirit, am I right here?


 

 

 
From: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member IconOct-14 11:52 AM 
To: RickT1962 (sthnreb1)  (48 of 54) 
 39847.48 in reply to 39847.36 

I see you like the dictionary to explain God's Word? 

Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh. I already showed you that in verses I gave you. When was God without His Word?

Jesus as the Word was always with the Father. He is not a created being. It is a relational relationship.  Jesus was the Son of the Father and son of man.  The Father implanted the Son of God into Mary via the Holy Spirit. Begotten of God--the eternal God--not created because He always existed with God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

You didn't answer me-- did you study with the Jehovah Witnesses?

 

 

 

 

     

Psalm119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path"

 

 
From: RickT1962 (sthnreb1)Oct-14 2:11 PM 
To: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (49 of 54) 
 39847.49 in reply to 39847.48 

It's not really for me to respond to personal questions from others.  However, I don't mind answering, I know what the Witnesses teach, the Catholic, the Baptist (I was brought up Baptist) and many other religions.  The only way to determine who is correct and who is not is to learn.  I see most here are set and only listen to their minister who shows them what they think the Bible says.  I had a Baptist minister curse me out and call me all sorts of names because I did not agree with him.  A 35 year minister too.  My brother in law was a Church of God Minister for over 30 years.  Now, what is your background concerning other religions or is yours the only one?  I see you never read much further than John 1:1.  God the Father said no one could see him and live.  So did the disciples not see Jesus?  If you study and see what scholars say on John 1:1 you will see the correct rendering to be and the word was "a" God.  Check it out.  Trinitarians changed the meaning to back a trinity but the whole remainder of John shows they are not a trinity.  They are one in purpose.  Also, research the meaning of First Born.  Remember, broad and spacious is the road leading to destruction and narrow and cramped the road to eternal life, and few are finding it.  Satans goal is to blind as many as possible concerning religion, especially those not willing to open their eyes.  If you want to post your background since you were so concerned with mine, I will read it, otherwise being unreasonable, no sense in proceeding.    

 

 
From: RickT1962 (sthnreb1)Oct-14 2:37 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (50 of 54) 
 39847.50 in reply to 39847.47 

bob>After God formed Adam, God breathed life into him, which would mean before that time Adam was an animal type being without a spirit, right?

When God formed Adam, he was not alive.  Just as when a new baby is born, God breathed into Adams nostrils and he became a living being.  Babies are living being but without the breath of life, they would die.  So, no, Adam was not like an animal.  

The person himself is a soul.  The spirit is all you know.  Your thoughts etc which go back to God when you die.  When you die, remember, no thoughts or nothing.  This spirit of yours is retained in God's memory for a Resurrection in which it can be restored.  That's also what faith is, hopes that one 

?will be resurrected and his spirit from God returned.  That means all your memories and personality.  

 

I believe since there is not thought or knowledge when one dies, it is the same as before you were born. 

bob>How do we know that?  Depends on whether you believe what the Bible says or not.  I've quoted the verses.  Gen. 3:19: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”  Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”

If your thoughts and thinking perish you are non-existent, just as before you were born.  And, in that state, time ceases to exist.  1 minute, 1 year, a thousand years or even millions of years are all the same to dead.  You don't comprehend that?

Spirit----

  1. the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.
    "we seek a harmony between body and spirit"
     
    Similar:
    soul
     
     
    psyche
     
     
...[Message truncated]

 

 
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