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What type of pen do you most often use?   The Consumer You: Marketplace

Started 11/19/21 by Showtalk; 6424 views.
Showtalk
Host

From: Showtalk 

11/28/21

I don’t think they all did.

Showtalk
Host

From: Showtalk 

11/28/21

I just had that discussion with the aunt of a young adult who refuses to take the perfect job and refuses to take even a basic entry level position that will lead to work in the field they want. How did they graduate from business school and not know they had to start at the bottom?

WALTER784

From: WALTER784 

11/28/21

Showtalk said...

I just had that discussion with the aunt of a young adult who refuses to take the perfect job and refuses to take even a basic entry level position that will lead to work in the field they want. How did they graduate from business school and not know they had to start at the bottom?

I was discussing similar with a friend in another forum and this is what he said: (Posted with his permission)

>>>Exactly. To my point of view and what I have been reading, hearing from the media and seeing, there has been for many years this obsession about a College Degree. Yes, a degree is nice resume fodder even though 90% are either fraudulent or filled with manure. I do believe that a person should seek continued education from colleges concerning classes dealing with economics, business, history, civics and the Constitution. Get your points, and then add the classes and grades in your resume while feeding your knowledge with things that really matter so you become a better informed person able to make more educated decisions and judgements. After my first year at the Liberal Arts college, I decided it was a waste of money and time for me. But then I enlisted in the Air Force and took classes offered by the Air Force and eventually accumulated enough points for an Associates degree. But best of all I became a more informed person and as a free thinker I learned to not take everything at face value and ask educated questions. I was able to hold my own with PHD holders, so it isn't so much about the AS(Authentic S*** degree), BS(Bull S*** degree), MS(More S*** degree) or PHD(Piled Higher and Deeper Degree) as having the intelligence from the courses to use what you learned and use it to practical use with the knowledge that what you learned is in a perfect life condition and realizing that it is as a guidance that may need a little twik now and then to be useful. Just A Thought.<<<

Nobody starts at middle management or higher in the beginning. We all started at the bottom and worked ourselves up from there. Just having a degree is like a paper driver's license. A guy who has been driving a car without a license for the past 20 years is a much much better driver than a guy who just got his driver's license. Basically because he's been driving without a license means that he was never stopped or asked to show his license.

It's experience that moves you up the ladder... not your paper degree!

FWIW

WALTER784

From: WALTER784 

11/29/21

Showtalk said...

a young adult who refuses to take the perfect job and refuses to take even a basic entry level position that will lead to work in the field they want. How did they graduate from business school and not know they had to start at the bottom?

Here is what Candace Owens said about that exact same thing about 4 months ago:

FWIW

Showtalk
Host

From: Showtalk 

11/29/21

But a degree can get them the job initially.

WALTER784

From: WALTER784 

11/30/21

Yes, it will get them in the door over one without a degree, but in the door is just the beginning. They, like just about all of the others, start at the bottom and work their way up.

So yes, the degree is not totally useless, but it won't get you an immediate mid-management job at first.

FWIW

Showtalk
Host

From: Showtalk 

11/30/21

No one should step into management without job experience.

WALTER784

From: WALTER784 

12/1/21

Absolutely.

They need to start at the bottom. Learn how their bosses manage them. And of course, there are good and bad managers, but that too needs to be learned at the bottom. 

The company I recently retired from is a good example. When I joined the company 16 years ago, my technical skills dwarfed the technical skills of everybody in the company. My company outsources it's employees to various customers for a variety of services. To give you an example... if my skills were ranked at a level 8, everybody else's skills were ranked at between 2 ~ 3 with maybe 1 or 2 people ranked 4. They were glad to have me, but didn't have any clientele that required my level of expertise.

So they created a New Business Development department and assigned me there. I used contacts from my previous company to see if there wasn't some way that my new company could open up business discussions with them. One company was glad to do business because they knew my skill level and so that was the first inroad. That company immediately outsourced me and I worked with them but they wanted more people with my skill level.

My company didn't have anybody else with similar skills, so I talked to my directors and asked if they would allow me to train those with levels 2 ~ 4 to increase their skills closer to the level that customer wanted. I also talked to the company that was outsourcing me whether I could spend 2 half-days for 3 months away from the customer's site to go back to my company and train more employees to increase their skills.

I did that for 3 months and the new customer I found for my company immediately took on those newly trained staff. But they wanted more. So I continued that 2 half-days a week for 3 months training for 3 consecutive years. That new customer now outsources more than 60 people from my company.

I also asked my company to find others who could teach similar courses for new recruits who join the company in the standard basics of Microsoft, Windows, Linux, Network, Security, Visual Basic, Java and other programming languages. Now, my previous company also offers training for AI as well. And my company grew from 300 people to over 3,800 people in the past 16 years.

In return, my company basically let me do whatever I wanted to do. I was my own manager! But that took me 2.5 to 3 years from age 47 with a large plethora of experience already tucked under my belt including management in my previous company. But it still took me 2.5 ~ 3 years to really excel in what I was doing.

So anybody who thinks that 3 months is enough to move to management... doesn't even understand corporations what so ever.

You need to do something for the company before they will do something for you (other than pay your minimum wage)!

You need to be inclined to do and be better, you need to have motivation to prove that you're worthy of staying on the payroll, and you need to find a place where you can do your best. And that can take anywhere from a minimum of 6-8 months to over several years depending upon what your target is.

You need to appeal to upper management by proving your worth... not just lip service. 

And I've always found that if you go to management with an easier, simpler, better way of doing things that they're currently doing, most of them will accept your request for improvement/change if it's presented properly. Which requires presentation skills too!

Once you've proved your worth, then you can move up to the section sub chief, section chief, department sub manager, department manager, etc. on upwards.

FWIW

Showtalk
Host

From: Showtalk 

12/1/21

You were productive and successful. More companies here are realizing that working well with others is crucial to company growth and production, and are hiring with that in mind. They might give different scenarios of problems the person could encounter and ask how they would deal with it. What if you know how to solve a problem and your manager doesn’t?  How do you interact so the work gets done and everyone is on the same page? Then they pick managers from employees who excel at dealing with people.  When they don’t, everything suffers.

WALTER784

From: WALTER784 

12/2/21

Showtalk said...

You were productive and successful.

But that was due to my past company's skillset which I acquired over a 14-year period of time.

Novell Netware Certified Instructor teaching classes in size from 6 ~ 15 people at a time for 3 full day sessions over 5 years.

Along with my Learning Tree International's Instructor for Microsoft Windows NT Administrator courses and network security teaching classes in size from 12 ~ 30 people at a time for 5 full day sessions over 3 years.

Teaching skills require not only your knowledge of the product you're teaching about, but you need to articulate the entire narrative such that it's both interesting and worth remembering to the students who pay quite a hansom fee to attend. You have to constantly watch the students to see if anybody is struggling in one of the course sessions, go over to them, ask if they need help and then assist them to complete the assignments on time. (i.e. You have to manage the class along with your time to ensure you don't go over the specified times.) And when the Q&A sessions pop up, you have to answer them in a meaningful and timely manner which is yet another skill in and of itself. You're constantly interacting with all of the students for 3, 4 or 5 days a week.

And for some of my network security courses, we had a hands-on session where people who have never seen or touched a network router before have to configure it properly. And if anybody has problems, of which many of them did, you had to have diagnostics and troubleshooting skills to rapidly discover what they did wrong and advise them how to fix the problem.

You have to manage breaks and lunch time too.

And, my real early years were spent learning many of the tools I needed to use to do my job. Many of those tools people today have never even heard of. Micropro's Wordstar, Calcstar & Datastar similar to Microsoft's Word, Excel and Access. And then there was SuperCalc & Multiplan which were similar to Excel as well... and then there was Ashton Tate's dBASE database software like Access... most of them... long before Microsoft came out with their Win95 and MS Office.

I leveraged all of these tools to my advantage creating presentation slides, training material, and offering analytical reporting on the health of a network, the health of a server, the strength/weakness of a security appliance, etc.

Every year end, our company had each department head stand up and give a report of their department's performance over the past year. 98% of them were mainly black and white pages and pages and pages of long text in small fonts with lots of tables and numbers. When it was my turn to give my department's report, I used colorful graphics instead of long text and instead of tables, I used all kinds of graphs. The whole company enjoyed my presentation best. Heads of other departments asked me how I did it and showed them. It took a year or two for them to get the hang of it, but each year was an improvement over the previous year.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... it takes time to learn and improve. So for new recruits right out of college, my advise would be:

1) Look around at what everybody is doing. What are you doing differently and why?

2) If you see a chance to help somebody else... offer your assistance. Most of the time it will be appreciated and get you in better with the other employees who've been there longer. 

3) If you're having problems doing your job, ask for help. But also learn what you need to do quickly and how to do it properly as well.

4) Perfect management is built on the 5-4-3-2-1 principle. There should be 1 president with 2 or more executives, each executive should respectively have 3 or more divisions and each of those divisions should have 4 or more departments and finally, each department should have 5 or more sections. As for how many employees per section... that will vary drastically, but the further up the ladder you go... the less the number of people there should be. Calculated in a table for various sized corporations it would look something like this. It doesn't work very well for smaller companies. But if your company has more than this calculation, then your company is top heavy. It should have the same or less than the following numbers.

President 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Executive 2 1 2 4 8 21 42 83
Division 3 2 4 8 17 42 83 167
Department 4 5 13 25 50 125 250 500
Section 5 20 50 100 200 500 1,000 2,000
Mgmt Tot.   29 70 139 276 689 1,376 2,751
Reg Empl Tot.   72 180 362 724 1,812 3,624 7,249
Empl G. Tot.   100 250 500 1,000 2,500 5,000 10,000

As such, the number of management positions go down the higher up you go and thus only a lucky few will get to the upper echelons in a company and you have to be top dog to get those positions. Right out of college will only land you as a regular employee.

FWIW

  • Edited December 2, 2021 3:34 am  by  WALTER784
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